[anti-abuse-wg] Draft RIPE87 Minutes for Consideration

Hi all,

this is a plain text version of the meeting minutes.

Have a nice holiday,
Markus

- snip -

Anti-Abuse Working Group Minutes RIPE 87
Wednesday, 29 November 11:00 - 12:30
Chairs: Brian Nisbet, Tobias Knecht, Markus de Brün
Scribe: Chafic Chaya
Status: Draft

The recordings and presentations are available at:
https://ripe87.ripe.net/programme/meeting-plan/aa-wg/

The stenography transcript is available at:
https://ripe87.ripe.net/archives/steno/29/

# A. Administrative Matters
Brian opened the session by welcoming everyone, thanking the supporters, 
mentioning the CoC and going through some administrative staff. The 
Working Group (WG) minutes from RIPE 86 were approved, and the agenda 
was finalised.

# B. Updates
## B.2. From Awareness to Action - Empowering Change Through Anti-Abuse 
Training
Gerardo Viviers, RIPE NCC
The presentation is available at:
https://ripe87.ripe.net/wp-content/uploads/presentations/5-RIPE-87-AA-WG-presentation-GAViviers.pdf

Gerardo discussed the current solution of using webinars for anti-abuse 
and suggested a shift towards e-learning for its benefits of self-paced 
learning, scalability, and consistent training. He highlighted the 
challenges of delivering live webinars and the benefits of e-learning in 
sustaining momentum and complementing live training.

Brian thanked Gerardo, the RIPE NCC, and there was consent on the 
direction going forward with e-learning alongside the webinar.

## B.3. Discussion and Work Item Creation
Tobias Knecht, co-chair, started by discussing the need for increased 
community engagement in the WG, particularly in addressing issues 
related to abuse networks. He noted that recent discussions have 
highlighted a lack of response to emails sent to abuse networks and have 
opened up further discussions on topics like Abuse email address 
verification and ASN Cleanup.

Tobias acknowledged Marco's upcoming presentation, which provided an 
overview of the work already done in these areas, helping to establish a 
foundation for future discussions and actions.
     • Abuse Email Address Verification
     • ASN Cleanup
     • Abuse Email Ignored

The presentation is available at:
https://ripe87.ripe.net/wp-content/uploads/presentations/72-RIPE87-AAWG-final.key

The presentation details the RIPE NCC's efforts in two areas: Abuse-c 
Validation and ASN Cleanup. Abuse-c Validation involved verifying 
contact details for abuse handling, with annual checks yielding a small 
failure rate, followed by steps to correct invalid contacts.

The ASN Cleanup project targeted unused Autonomous System Numbers, 
contacting ASN holders for confirmation, resulting in over half of the 
contacted ASNs being returned. This work ensured accurate and active use 
of RIPE NCC resources.

Tobias urged the community to share their thoughts on what constitutes 
abusive behaviour and how the WG should tackle it. He mentioned that 
while some discussions occur on mailing lists, many also happen in 
meetings. The goal is to gather all this information, assess the current 
status quo, and then engage in conversations to steer various topics in 
the right direction. This could lead to policy proposals or other actions.

Brian pointed out that the responsibility of addressing these issues 
does not solely lie with the RIPE NCC or any individual but with the 
entire community as members of the WG. He stresseed the importance of 
community members expressing their concerns and ideas, as this is 
crucial for change. Brian encourages everyone to share their thoughts on 
whether these issues are problematic and to suggest improvements. He 
warned that without community input, there will be no change, and 
policies that might not be favourable could emerge. Brian emphasised 
this as an opportunity for everyone to contribute, highlighting the 
importance of community involvement in shaping policies and addressing 
issues within the working group.

Alejandro Fernandez Cernuda from Global Cyber Alliance added a note 
about NIS 2 and whether there is an incentive for action.

Tobias commented that this was a good question what the community feels 
about it.

Brian and Tobias addressed the implications of the upcoming NIS 2 
regulations by the EU and the role of the community in shaping responses 
to these regulations. They reminded everyone of the community's ability 
to influence and create policies, citing the example of Abuse-c policy 
and encouraged the community to focus not only on policy but also on 
other aspects like training and guides on abuse.

Looking forward to the next RIPE meeting, Brain mentioned that by then, 
NIS 2 would be legislated, and the community would need to understand 
its implications and identify areas for potential action.
There were no comments or questions.

# E. Presentations
## E.1. Global Abuse Reporting
Tobias, speaking as a founder of Abuseix, discussesdthe concept of 
global reporting in the context of Internet abuse and the importance of 
abuse teams in handling such issues. He emphasised that many companies, 
including ISPs and hosting providers, encounter a variety of abusive 
behaviours, such as spam emails and dictionary attacks, which can reveal 
compromised machines and networks. He encouraged companies to share 
relevant data with abuse teams, offering Abuseix's services to 
facilitate this process. The presentation is a call to action for 
greater collaboration and data sharing to combat internet abuse more 
effectively.

# X. A.O.B.
Niall O’Reilly, RIPE Chair Team, raised a concern about the collateral 
damage caused by the current abuse management ecosystem, particularly to 
those at a disadvantage in power imbalances. He questioned whether the 
WG could address issues where security measures, justified on the basis 
of protection, end up harming innocent parties.

Brain respondeds positively, encouraging Niall to provide more details 
for a clearer understanding of the issue.

Michele Nylon from Black Knights in Ireland echoed the need for 
specificity, noting that while the issue Niall mentions is of interest, 
it was presented vaguely. Michele suggested that articulating the 
problem more clearly on the list with specific examples would be 
beneficial. He acknowledged that while companies have the right to 
protect their networks, there are instances of collateral damage that 
are challenging to address.

Niall agreed with the suggestions and considers following up on the 
mailing list for more clarity and assistance on the issue, recognising 
the complexity and the need for a detailed approach to resolve it 
potentially.

# Z. Agenda for RIPE 88
Brian reminded everyone about the upcoming RIPE 88 meeting in Poland and 
expressed his gratitude to everyone before concluding the session.

- snap -

On 21.12.23 20:03, Gert Doering wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 12:17:09PM +0000, Brian Nisbet wrote:
>> Please find attached the draft minutes from the WG Session at RIPE87.
>>
>> If you have any comments on the minutes, please email aa-wg-chair at ripe.net before the end of the first week of January.
> I do have a comment... and that is "can we have this in a reasonable and
> nonproprietary format, not known as a transport for viruses of all sorts"?
>
> We *do* train people to not klick on random attachments in e-mail.
>
> thanks,
>
> Gert Doering
>          -- NetMaster
>