[anti-abuse-wg] 2019-04 Discussion Phase (Validation of "abuse-mailbox")
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No No
no0484985 at gmail.com
Thu Apr 30 15:03:57 CEST 2020
*"If this restaurant were the only source of food in a region, it would damn well be illegal to refuse service no matter how (or if) the client is dressed. "* and so should not being able to access the restaurant at all because someone is conducting a DDoS on the front door and flooding you with advertisements because some idiot is too lazy to check their abuse mailbox once a year. -- On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 11:01 PM Sascha Luck [ml] <aawg at c4inet.net> wrote: > On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 12:42:09PM +0000, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: > >RIPE NCC need not decide whether a behaviour is legal or not in order to > prohibit use of resources that it allocates for such behaviour. > > > >Wearing a T-shirt, shorts and flip flops is perfectly legal and yet you > can be refused entry into a fancy restaurant if you wear them. > > > >Nobody gets to sue the restaurant for refusing admission by claiming that > tshirts and flip flops are perfectly legal attire, and even nudity is legal > in some parts of Europe (German topless and nude beaches say). > > If this restaurant were the only source of food in a region, it > would damn well be illegal to refuse service no matter how (or > if) the client is dressed. > > Why are we havijg thjis discussion yet again? > > rgds, > Sascha Luck > > > > >--srs > >________________________________ > >From: Nick Hilliard <nick at foobar.org> > >Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2020 5:43:04 PM > >To: Suresh Ramasubramanian <ops.lists at gmail.com> > >Cc: anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net <anti-abuse-wg at ripe.net> > >Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] 2019-04 Discussion Phase (Validation of > "abuse-mailbox") > > > >Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote on 30/04/2020 01:58: > >> Why would I ask about something I am posting as an individual in my > >> personal capacity? > > > >because your day job involves abuse / security and in that capacity you > >may have access to good quality legal resources. > > > >> I see great pains being taken to have NCC stay hands off and arms length > >> from abuse issues at its members. I understand the motivation. > >> > >> However, being in a fiduciary role - with IPv4 being traded like > >> currency these days the description fits - RIPE NCC can’t not get > involved. > >> > >> I am concerned that this is eventually going to lead to heavy handed > >> state regulation if a regulator gets involved after some particularly > >> egregious misbehaviour by a (hypothetical at this point but the risk > >> exists or might even exist now) shell company that gets itself > >> membership, even LIR status and then uses a large allocation of IPs > >> exclusively for crime. > >> > >> NCC owes it to the rest of its membership and the internet community at > >> large to take a more active role in this matter. > >> > >> Though those of us that are saying this are probably voices in the > >> wilderness at this point. > > > >Couple of general observations: > > > >- internet abuse is a specific instance of general societal abuse. It's > >a complex problem and one where punishment / the threat of punishment is > >one of many methods of handling it, and arguably not one of the better > >ones from a general application point of view. > > > >- The RIPE NCC is not constituted to evaluate what is and isn't legal in > >the 75+ countries that it services. E.g. should it revoke numbering > >resources due to CSAM because that's illegal in NL? What about > >blasphemous material, which is such a no-no in several other service > >countries that it attracts capital punishment? It's a difficult > >proposition to suggest that the RIPE NCC should start getting into the > >business of evaluating what is and isn't abuse. > > > >- we already have structures in place to handle evaluation of what > >constitutes acceptable or unacceptable behaviour. The international > >nature of the internet has strained this to the point where it often > >doesn't work. > > > >- there's a consistent undercurrent of thought here of feeling that > >because other societal mechanisms for controlling abuse have not stopped > >abuse on the internet, that the RIPE NCC is obliged to act. This > >assumption needs to be questioned. > > > >- almost all of the policy proposals in AAWG over the last several years > >have been aimed at using the RIPE number registry as a social behaviour > >enforcement mechanism. There are other ways of handling social > >behaviour issues, e.g. standards creation + compliance, community > >forums, etc, etc, etc. > > > >- complex problems aren't amenable to simple fixes. > > > >- the primary concern expressed by the people I've talked to in law > >enforcement is: "where should the warrant be served?" > > > >- the RIPE NCC operates in a complex legal environment. There's a > >substantial risk that the types of proposals that are being pushed in > >AAWG would be found to be illegal and would open the organisation up to > >damages or prosecution if applied (e.g shutting down a company because > >they insisted on using a web form instead of SMTP for handling abuse > >reports). Alex de Joode's emails in the last round of discussion > >indicated some of the difficulties involved here. > > > >Nothing in any of this invalidates the frustration that everyone has for > >continued problems relating to fraud and abuse. > > > >Nick > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://lists.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/anti-abuse-wg/attachments/20200430/7c77abe7/attachment.html>
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