[members-discuss] RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Open House: Recording and Slides Available
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sdy at a-n-t.ru
sdy at a-n-t.ru
Thu Apr 11 18:35:42 CEST 2024
Ok. So you have your business, your business - your problems. Please, do not try teach other people how to work if they do not ask you. I do not understand your 5 cents for our business and how we use IPv6 and IPv4. If you do not need some resources - it's good for you now. Time run - some will need changing. If you have some another looks on IPv4 problem - make your own position! BUT PLEASE? DO NOT TOLD US HOW TO DO THE BUSINESS! All of us are not a babies. > >> How much IPv4 have you companies? > > My LIR have a single /22, and a single /24 for the IXP we drive, and > I dont need more IPV4 because we already deployed dual stack IPV4/IPV6... > > >> Use or not IPv6 - is the choice! Everyone have different businesses. If >> we need we will use it!! > > Wrong IPV6 = connectivity. In the world there are 8B people and at least > 8B servers. Can you fit them in 32bit address space ? - No ! Can you fit > them in 128bit address space ? - 18446744073709551617 TIMES ! There is > nothing you can do with IPV4 and you can not with IPV6 - it is matter of > knowedge ! > > >> Many LIR's need IPv4, but now some 'oldmans' want to make buisness on >> free >> resources. It is not clear business for me. Sorry, it is abnormal then >> something that giving for free is resale for 10 euros per year. > > I am also network administrator of a access ISPs some of them have more > than 6000 end users and fit in a single /22 (plus all the internal > infrastructure) nobody cares for the IPV4, NAT IPV4 1:16 and give IPV6. > If an end users want IPV4 +1 EURO (100 rublas) per month simple. Honestly > I dont care about the IPV4 resources it is a part of the past for me, all > plans of the networks are done on IPV6, IPV4 is just something we need to > support for some more time. If someone have 12k - 15k to "buy" /24 IPV4 > or 100 Euro/mnth to rent such for me he have serious knowedge problems :) > And big guilty for that have RIPE's flat charging scheme, it just work > for the speculators. And no You dont need IPV4 to grow you need IPV6 to > step in the future (if you plan to work that bussiness in long term) > > >> Unfortunately I can see another way - divide Internet by paths and >> redistribute resources again in this paths by new NCC or goverments - >> would you like it? > > Government, politics, brokers, speculators and all "parasites" must stay > away (or be pushed away) from the Internet ecosystem (my own point of > view). Internet is for connecting people not to divide them. Internet > resources are tight part of the network, _MUST_ be on use to the companies > who work for the Internet and have to be available to everyone on the > planet, also their uniquiness must be guaranteed ! > > > > Ivaylo Josifov > VarnaIX / Varteh LTD > +359 52 969393 > Varna, Bulgaria > > > On Thu, 11 Apr 2024, sdy at a-n-t.ru wrote: > >> >> Ivaylo, sorry but if you want count money in my pockets, let's count >> your >> too! >> How much IPv4 have you companies? >> >> Use or not IPv6 - is the choice! Everyone have different businesses. If >> we need we will use it!! >> >> Many companies now need more IPv4 for they work or grow! It is not right >> that some limit group of people was taken something and speculate it, >> when >> it is needed for other people. >> >> Many LIR's need IPv4, but now some 'oldmans' want to make buisness on >> free >> resources. It is not clear business for me. Sorry, it is abnormal then >> something that giving for free is resale for 10 euros per year. >> >> If RIPE and NCC will not decide problem with IPv4 and AS it will make >> much >> more problems for all. >> >> Unfortunately I can see another way - divide Internet by paths and >> redistribute resources again in this paths by new NCC or goverments - >> would you like it? >> >>> >>>> Sorry, it is already was discussed. >>>> It's wrong model with categories. ... >>> >>> So all other RIRs are wrong ? Only RIPE is on the right road ? >>> >>> From what I see "Alpha Net Telecom" still do not have IPV6 (why?) and >> your company holds sumary less of 2 x /19 IPV4 blocks so ... >>> >>> I wrote about my calculation (based on IANA resources delegated to >>> RIPE) >> for charging scheme a week ago: Your company will pay 1500 euro / year >> and RIPE bugdet will be up to 64M - sustainable for the next 10 years. >> So why you lobbing for something worse for you ? >>> >>> Let me tell you what will happen if we keep going with the flat fee for >> all... Merging Merging Merging in the end will left 2k-3k members >> (levels around 2005). You will be pay then 21 000 Euro and your >> resources will be still same. When 10 other LIRs are merged each of them >> will pay 2k again and will have same resources. how it sounds to you ? >> What you will say then in that future moment ? Do you think you can make >> a change in RIPE charging scheme _THEN_ (when all will waht to keep >> going with the flat >>> model) ? >>> >>> >>> Ivaylo Josifov >>> VarnaIX / Varteh LTD >>> +359 52 969393 >>> Varna, Bulgaria >>> >>> >>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024, sdy at a-n-t.ru wrote: >>> >>>> Sorry, it is already was discussed. >>>> It's wrong model with categories. It do not anything to decide >> resources deficits. >>>> It is strongly must be payment for each assigned deficit resource, >>>> like >> was the land tax in England. Only this way making all NCC equal in >> their >>>> rights, and will return unused resources to NCC. >>>> >>>> WE need to vote at first MUST we pay for each deficit resource or not. >>>> And >>>> it NEED to take in vote all NCC members! >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> i dont understand, why RIPE try to punish the small providers, as a >> non-profit organisation. They are trying to punish the small providers >> and >>>>> strengthen or favor big proividers. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There are thousends of solution advices from members as i see. Many >>>>> good >>>>> offers but also examples from other RIRs. Why still try to monopolize >>>>> the >>>>> sector by doing this. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For example: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> IPv4 = IPv4 Allocations /24 >>>>> >>>>> MF = Yearly Fee >>>>> >>>>> AF = Allocation Fee >>>>> >>>>> PR = Percentage of the Yearly Fee to the Allocation Fee >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> IPv4 MF AF >>>>> PR >>>>> >>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> 16384 1.875 1.228.800 >>>>> %0,15 >>>>> >>>>> 4096 1.875 307.200 >>>>> %0,6 >>>>> >>>>> 256 1.875 19.200 >>>>> %9,7 >>>>> >>>>> 16 1.875 1.200 >>>>> %156 >>>>> >>>>> 1 1.875 75 >>>>> %2500 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> All the adviced models are very similar and as you can see, for the >> smaller providers it is so dependant. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And another point is, that the adviced schemes are almost identical. >>>>> What >>>>> should be chosen, i am not sure. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If needed, surely can be found many solution variations, and i am >>>>> sure >> better than adviced schemes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Instead of monopolizing the big providers, by advicing consolidation, >>>>> you >>>>> should provide some relif for small providers. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And in all the adviced schemes the Yaerly Fee for every LIR account >>>>> is >> too >>>>> much for small providers? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en / Best Regards >>>>> >>>>> Murat TERZIOGLU >>>>> PREBITS >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bochumer Str. 20 >>>>> >>>>> 44866 Bochum >>>>> >>>>> Deutschland >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Telefon: 0234/58825994 >>>>> >>>>> Telefax: 0234/58825995 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <http://www.prebits.de/> www.prebits.de >>>>> >>>>> <mailto:info at prebits.de> info at prebits.de >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> USt-ID: DE315418902 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Von: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net> Im Auftrag >>>>> von >> Martin Millnert via members-discuss >>>>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. April 2024 14:43 >>>>> An: Fergal Cunningham <fergalc at ripe.net> >>>>> Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net >>>>> Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Open >>>>> House: >>>>> Recording and Slides Available >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dear Fergal, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I don?t envy the challenge of the board with this feedback, but I >>>>> suspect >>>>> it is wise to listen to it else the platform for new candidates to >>>>> the >> board the next 5 years seems to be pretty straightforward and likely >> to be >>>>> elected: Cost reductions. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> As a side, doesn?t the articles of association allow for membership >> organized items for AGM to vote on as well? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> Martin Millnert >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 10 Apr 2024, at 15:38, Fergal Cunningham <fergalc at ripe.net >>>>> <mailto:fergalc at ripe.net> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dear Martin, >>>>> >>>>> The Executive Board decided on these draft options at its meeting on >>>>> 25th >>>>> of March. So now the Board and management will follow the feedback on >>>>> the >>>>> draft proposal on the list. They will decide by 24 April if these >>>>> will be >>>>> the final options to vote on at the GM or if they want to make >> amendments. >>>>> So essentially the decision on what gets voted on at the GM is made >>>>> by >> the >>>>> Board. You can see the minutes from that meeting here (section 3.3 on >>>>> the >>>>> Charging Scheme): >>>>> https://www.ripe.net/about-us/executive-board/minutes/2024/174th-executive-board-meeting-minutes/ >>>>> >>>>> And it's worth mentioning that this list is for members to discuss >>>>> the >> issues while we and the board will listen. But we will of course reply >> and >>>>> provide information to address the points raised if at all possible. >>>>> >>>>> All the best, >>>>> Fergal >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 2:41?PM <sdy at a-n-t.ru <mailto:sdy at a-n-t.ru> > >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all! >>>>> >>>>> I want to ask add to vote variant D. >>>>> All as was before+5% inflation and 10E per 1024 addresses IPv4 per >> year (counting at 31 december). Can we try to vote it too? >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 22 Mar 2024, at 15:27, Fergal Cunningham <fergalc at ripe.net >> <mailto:fergalc at ripe.net> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This Wednesday, 20 March, we held an Open House with members about >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025. There was a presentation from RIPE >> NCC staff, including our CFO and Managing Director, as well as >> statements from both the Executive Board Chair and Treasurer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There was a productive discussion about the financial landscape we >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> operating in and thoughts about how best to fund the RIPE NCC. The >> Executive Board will meet on Monday and discuss what we heard this >> week, >>>>>>> and they will decide on a draft charging proposal to put forward to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> members in April. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The session recording and the slides from the presentation are >> available >>>>>>> at: >>>>>>> https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-charging-scheme-2025/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At the bottom of this mail you can find the timestamps for the >>>>>>> sections >>>>>>> of the presentation and Q&A. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We greatly appreciate the input we received from members this week >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> the constructive nature of the discussions. We encourage you all to >> continue to discuss the charging scheme on this list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Fergal Cunningham >>>>>>> Head of Membership Engagement >>>>>>> RIPE NCC >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Open House Timestamps >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 01:30 Welcome and Agenda, Fergal Cunningham >>>>>>> 04:30 Development and History of the Charging Scheme, Fergal >>>>>>> Cunningham >>>>>>> 12:45 Consolidation and Inflation, Simon Jan Haytink >>>>>>> 19:10 The Work We Need to Fund, Simon Jan Haytink >>>>>>> 22:30 Summary and Key Questions, Hans Petter Holen >>>>>>> 27:20 Statement from Executive Board Chair, Ond?ej Filip >>>>>>> 30:30 Statement from Executive Board Treasurer, Raymond Jetten >>>>>>> 32:45 >> Q&A with RIPE NCC Members >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Fergal, >>>>>> >>>>>> What is the formal process of deciding what options the AGM get to >>>>>> vote >>>>>> at, during the upcoming AGM? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I would like to suggest a Consumer Price Index based re-indexing of >>>>>> the >>>>>> costs, using standard European CPI numbers from Eurostat. We all >> have to >>>>>> deal with increases in costs due to inflation, and it?s fair that >> RIPE does not have to fight inflation alone. Yearly inflation as >> released in >>>>>> March 2024 was at 2.4% ? >>>>>> https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-euro-indicators/w/2-03042024-ap >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> Martin_______________________________________________ >>>>>> members-discuss mailing list >>>>>> members-discuss at ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net> >>>>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>>>>> Unsubscribe: >>>>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/sdy%40a-n-t.ru >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----------------------------- >>>>> ? ????????? ???????? ??????? >>>>> ??? "????? ??? ???????" >>>>> +7(498)785-8-000 ???. >>>>> +7(495)940-92-11 ???. >>>>> +7(925)518-10-69 ???. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> members-discuss mailing list >>>>> members-discuss at ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net> >>>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>>>> Unsubscribe: >>>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/martin.millnert%40brainmill.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> members-discuss mailing list >>>>> members-discuss at ripe.net >>>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>>>> Unsubscribe: >>>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/sdy%40a-n-t.ru >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----------------------------- >>>> ? ????????? ???????? ??????? >>>> ??? "????? ??? ???????" >>>> +7(498)785-8-000 ???. >>>> +7(495)940-92-11 ???. >>>> +7(925)518-10-69 ???. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> members-discuss mailing list >>>> members-discuss at ripe.net >>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>>> Unsubscribe: >>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/ivaylo%40bglans.net >>>> >>> >> >> >> ----------------------------- >> ? ????????? ???????? ??????? >> ??? "????? ??? ???????" >> +7(498)785-8-000 ???. >> +7(495)940-92-11 ???. >> +7(925)518-10-69 ???. >> >> >> >> >> ----------------------------- >> ? ????????? ???????? ??????? >> ??? "????? ??? ???????" >> +7(498)785-8-000 ???. >> +7(495)940-92-11 ???. >> +7(925)518-10-69 ???. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> members-discuss mailing list >> members-discuss at ripe.net >> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >> Unsubscribe: >> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/ivaylo%40bglans.net >> > ----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот.
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