[members-discuss] RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Open House: Recording and Slides Available
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sdy at a-n-t.ru
sdy at a-n-t.ru
Thu Apr 11 19:05:20 CEST 2024
So, looks, you only like to round resources to /19 and 16 ASN. What difference if it will be payment not for /19, and for /25 or 1? Nobody will count it by hand, Excel (or other sof will calc it). But in you case, if I have unused /22 in my /19 - it is absolutely not interesting to return it! > > I dont try to teach anybody anything. You asked I reply. My only point > here is to try find long term solution to RIPE charging fees. Because the > way > we move now will have bad impacts to RIPE and all members in the future... > > What I offer is someone from all RIPE NCC staff (150,200 or what their > number is) to do calculations and write here what will be the RIPE budget > if we have such charging scheme: > > 750 EURO fee LIR's sum (legacy IRR + sponsoring) allocated resources is up > to: > 1 x /19 IPV4 BLOCK > 1 x /28 IPV6 BLOCK > 16 ASN > If LIR's resources pass one or more of the above parameters +750 EURO up > to: > 2 x /19 IPV4 BLOCK > 2 x /28 IPV6 BLOCK > 32 ASN > If pass one or more of the above parameters +750 EURO and so on... > > Flat ladder charging scheme very similar to other RIRs. > > /19 IPV4 BLOCK contain 16 x /24 > /28 IPV6 BLOCK contain 16 x /32 > Prety equal to can be shared among 16 ASN. Also dont rely only on > "precious" IPV4, quite sustainable for the future, as well as distributes > resources and the monetary burden of contributions fairly. > > > > > Ivaylo Josifov > VarnaIX / Varteh LTD > +359 52 969393 > Varna, Bulgaria > > > On Thu, 11 Apr 2024, sdy at a-n-t.ru wrote: > >> Ok. >> So you have your business, your business - your problems. >> Please, do not try teach other people how to work if they do not ask >> you. >> I do not understand your 5 cents for our business and how we use IPv6 >> and >> IPv4. >> >> If you do not need some resources - it's good for you now. >> Time run - some will need changing. >> >> If you have some another looks on IPv4 problem - make your own position! >> >> BUT PLEASE? DO NOT TOLD US HOW TO DO THE BUSINESS! >> All of us are not a babies. >> >>> >>>> How much IPv4 have you companies? >>> >>> My LIR have a single /22, and a single /24 for the IXP we drive, and >>> I dont need more IPV4 because we already deployed dual stack >>> IPV4/IPV6... >>> >>> >>>> Use or not IPv6 - is the choice! Everyone have different businesses. >>>> If >>>> we need we will use it!! >>> >>> Wrong IPV6 = connectivity. In the world there are 8B people and at >>> least >>> 8B servers. Can you fit them in 32bit address space ? - No ! Can you >>> fit >>> them in 128bit address space ? - 18446744073709551617 TIMES ! There is >>> nothing you can do with IPV4 and you can not with IPV6 - it is matter >>> of >>> knowedge ! >>> >>> >>>> Many LIR's need IPv4, but now some 'oldmans' want to make buisness on >>>> free >>>> resources. It is not clear business for me. Sorry, it is abnormal then >>>> something that giving for free is resale for 10 euros per year. >>> >>> I am also network administrator of a access ISPs some of them have more >>> than 6000 end users and fit in a single /22 (plus all the internal >>> infrastructure) nobody cares for the IPV4, NAT IPV4 1:16 and give IPV6. >>> If an end users want IPV4 +1 EURO (100 rublas) per month simple. >>> Honestly >>> I dont care about the IPV4 resources it is a part of the past for me, >>> all >>> plans of the networks are done on IPV6, IPV4 is just something we need >>> to >>> support for some more time. If someone have 12k - 15k to "buy" /24 IPV4 >>> or 100 Euro/mnth to rent such for me he have serious knowedge problems >>> :) >>> And big guilty for that have RIPE's flat charging scheme, it just work >>> for the speculators. And no You dont need IPV4 to grow you need IPV6 to >>> step in the future (if you plan to work that bussiness in long term) >>> >>> >>>> Unfortunately I can see another way - divide Internet by paths and >>>> redistribute resources again in this paths by new NCC or goverments - >>>> would you like it? >>> >>> Government, politics, brokers, speculators and all "parasites" must >>> stay >>> away (or be pushed away) from the Internet ecosystem (my own point of >>> view). Internet is for connecting people not to divide them. Internet >>> resources are tight part of the network, _MUST_ be on use to the >>> companies >>> who work for the Internet and have to be available to everyone on the >>> planet, also their uniquiness must be guaranteed ! >>> >>> >>> >>> Ivaylo Josifov >>> VarnaIX / Varteh LTD >>> +359 52 969393 >>> Varna, Bulgaria >>> >>> >>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024, sdy at a-n-t.ru wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Ivaylo, sorry but if you want count money in my pockets, let's count >>>> your >>>> too! >>>> How much IPv4 have you companies? >>>> >>>> Use or not IPv6 - is the choice! Everyone have different businesses. >>>> If >>>> we need we will use it!! >>>> >>>> Many companies now need more IPv4 for they work or grow! It is not >>>> right >>>> that some limit group of people was taken something and speculate it, >>>> when >>>> it is needed for other people. >>>> >>>> Many LIR's need IPv4, but now some 'oldmans' want to make buisness on >>>> free >>>> resources. It is not clear business for me. Sorry, it is abnormal then >>>> something that giving for free is resale for 10 euros per year. >>>> >>>> If RIPE and NCC will not decide problem with IPv4 and AS it will make >>>> much >>>> more problems for all. >>>> >>>> Unfortunately I can see another way - divide Internet by paths and >>>> redistribute resources again in this paths by new NCC or goverments - >>>> would you like it? >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, it is already was discussed. >>>>>> It's wrong model with categories. ... >>>>> >>>>> So all other RIRs are wrong ? Only RIPE is on the right road ? >>>>> >>>>> From what I see "Alpha Net Telecom" still do not have IPV6 (why?) and >>>> your company holds sumary less of 2 x /19 IPV4 blocks so ... >>>>> >>>>> I wrote about my calculation (based on IANA resources delegated to >>>>> RIPE) >>>> for charging scheme a week ago: Your company will pay 1500 euro / year >>>> and RIPE bugdet will be up to 64M - sustainable for the next 10 years. >>>> So why you lobbing for something worse for you ? >>>>> >>>>> Let me tell you what will happen if we keep going with the flat fee >>>>> for >>>> all... Merging Merging Merging in the end will left 2k-3k members >>>> (levels around 2005). You will be pay then 21 000 Euro and your >>>> resources will be still same. When 10 other LIRs are merged each of >>>> them >>>> will pay 2k again and will have same resources. how it sounds to you ? >>>> What you will say then in that future moment ? Do you think you can >>>> make >>>> a change in RIPE charging scheme _THEN_ (when all will waht to keep >>>> going with the flat >>>>> model) ? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ivaylo Josifov >>>>> VarnaIX / Varteh LTD >>>>> +359 52 969393 >>>>> Varna, Bulgaria >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, 11 Apr 2024, sdy at a-n-t.ru wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, it is already was discussed. >>>>>> It's wrong model with categories. It do not anything to decide >>>> resources deficits. >>>>>> It is strongly must be payment for each assigned deficit resource, >>>>>> like >>>> was the land tax in England. Only this way making all NCC equal in >>>> their >>>>>> rights, and will return unused resources to NCC. >>>>>> >>>>>> WE need to vote at first MUST we pay for each deficit resource or >>>>>> not. >>>>>> And >>>>>> it NEED to take in vote all NCC members! >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> i dont understand, why RIPE try to punish the small providers, as a >>>> non-profit organisation. They are trying to punish the small providers >>>> and >>>>>>> strengthen or favor big proividers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There are thousends of solution advices from members as i see. Many >>>>>>> good >>>>>>> offers but also examples from other RIRs. Why still try to >>>>>>> monopolize >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> sector by doing this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For example: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> IPv4 = IPv4 Allocations /24 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> MF = Yearly Fee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> AF = Allocation Fee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PR = Percentage of the Yearly Fee to the Allocation Fee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> IPv4 MF AF >>>>>>> PR >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 16384 1.875 1.228.800 >>>>>>> %0,15 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 4096 1.875 307.200 >>>>>>> %0,6 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 256 1.875 19.200 >>>>>>> %9,7 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 16 1.875 1.200 >>>>>>> %156 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1 1.875 75 >>>>>>> %2500 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All the adviced models are very similar and as you can see, for the >>>> smaller providers it is so dependant. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And another point is, that the adviced schemes are almost >>>>>>> identical. >>>>>>> What >>>>>>> should be chosen, i am not sure. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If needed, surely can be found many solution variations, and i am >>>>>>> sure >>>> better than adviced schemes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Instead of monopolizing the big providers, by advicing >>>>>>> consolidation, >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> should provide some relif for small providers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And in all the adviced schemes the Yaerly Fee for every LIR account >>>>>>> is >>>> too >>>>>>> much for small providers? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Mit freundlichen Gr??en / Best Regards >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Murat TERZIOGLU >>>>>>> PREBITS >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bochumer Str. 20 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 44866 Bochum >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Deutschland >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Telefon: 0234/58825994 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Telefax: 0234/58825995 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <http://www.prebits.de/> www.prebits.de >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <mailto:info at prebits.de> info at prebits.de >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> USt-ID: DE315418902 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Von: members-discuss <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net> Im Auftrag >>>>>>> von >>>> Martin Millnert via members-discuss >>>>>>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 11. April 2024 14:43 >>>>>>> An: Fergal Cunningham <fergalc at ripe.net> >>>>>>> Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net >>>>>>> Betreff: Re: [members-discuss] RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025 Open >>>>>>> House: >>>>>>> Recording and Slides Available >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Fergal, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don?t envy the challenge of the board with this feedback, but I >>>>>>> suspect >>>>>>> it is wise to listen to it else the platform for new candidates to >>>>>>> the >>>> board the next 5 years seems to be pretty straightforward and likely >>>> to be >>>>>>> elected: Cost reductions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As a side, doesn?t the articles of association allow for membership >>>> organized items for AGM to vote on as well? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Martin Millnert >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 10 Apr 2024, at 15:38, Fergal Cunningham <fergalc at ripe.net >>>>>>> <mailto:fergalc at ripe.net> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Martin, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Executive Board decided on these draft options at its meeting >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> 25th >>>>>>> of March. So now the Board and management will follow the feedback >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> draft proposal on the list. They will decide by 24 April if these >>>>>>> will be >>>>>>> the final options to vote on at the GM or if they want to make >>>> amendments. >>>>>>> So essentially the decision on what gets voted on at the GM is made >>>>>>> by >>>> the >>>>>>> Board. You can see the minutes from that meeting here (section 3.3 >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> Charging Scheme): >>>>>>> https://www.ripe.net/about-us/executive-board/minutes/2024/174th-executive-board-meeting-minutes/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And it's worth mentioning that this list is for members to discuss >>>>>>> the >>>> issues while we and the board will listen. But we will of course reply >>>> and >>>>>>> provide information to address the points raised if at all >>>>>>> possible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All the best, >>>>>>> Fergal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 2:41?PM <sdy at a-n-t.ru <mailto:sdy at a-n-t.ru> >>>>>>> > >>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I want to ask add to vote variant D. >>>>>>> All as was before+5% inflation and 10E per 1024 addresses IPv4 per >>>> year (counting at 31 december). Can we try to vote it too? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 22 Mar 2024, at 15:27, Fergal Cunningham <fergalc at ripe.net >>>> <mailto:fergalc at ripe.net> > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This Wednesday, 20 March, we held an Open House with members >>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2025. There was a presentation from RIPE >>>> NCC staff, including our CFO and Managing Director, as well as >>>> statements from both the Executive Board Chair and Treasurer. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There was a productive discussion about the financial landscape >>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> operating in and thoughts about how best to fund the RIPE NCC. >>>>>>>>> The >>>> Executive Board will meet on Monday and discuss what we heard this >>>> week, >>>>>>>>> and they will decide on a draft charging proposal to put forward >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> members in April. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The session recording and the slides from the presentation are >>>> available >>>>>>>>> at: >>>>>>>>> https://www.ripe.net/membership/meetings/open-house/ripe-ncc-charging-scheme-2025/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> At the bottom of this mail you can find the timestamps for the >>>>>>>>> sections >>>>>>>>> of the presentation and Q&A. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We greatly appreciate the input we received from members this >>>>>>>>> week >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> the constructive nature of the discussions. We encourage you all >>>>>>>>> to >>>> continue to discuss the charging scheme on this list. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Fergal Cunningham >>>>>>>>> Head of Membership Engagement >>>>>>>>> RIPE NCC >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Open House Timestamps >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 01:30 Welcome and Agenda, Fergal Cunningham >>>>>>>>> 04:30 Development and History of the Charging Scheme, Fergal >>>>>>>>> Cunningham >>>>>>>>> 12:45 Consolidation and Inflation, Simon Jan Haytink >>>>>>>>> 19:10 The Work We Need to Fund, Simon Jan Haytink >>>>>>>>> 22:30 Summary and Key Questions, Hans Petter Holen >>>>>>>>> 27:20 Statement from Executive Board Chair, Ond?ej Filip >>>>>>>>> 30:30 Statement from Executive Board Treasurer, Raymond Jetten >>>>>>>>> 32:45 >>>> Q&A with RIPE NCC Members >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Fergal, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What is the formal process of deciding what options the AGM get to >>>>>>>> vote >>>>>>>> at, during the upcoming AGM? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would like to suggest a Consumer Price Index based re-indexing >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> costs, using standard European CPI numbers from Eurostat. We all >>>> have to >>>>>>>> deal with increases in costs due to inflation, and it?s fair that >>>> RIPE does not have to fight inflation alone. Yearly inflation as >>>> released in >>>>>>>> March 2024 was at 2.4% ? >>>>>>>> https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-euro-indicators/w/2-03042024-ap >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>> Martin_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> members-discuss mailing list >>>>>>>> members-discuss at ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net> >>>>>>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: >>>>>>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/sdy%40a-n-t.ru >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----------------------------- >>>>>>> ? ????????? ???????? ??????? >>>>>>> ??? "????? ??? ???????" >>>>>>> +7(498)785-8-000 ???. >>>>>>> +7(495)940-92-11 ???. >>>>>>> +7(925)518-10-69 ???. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> members-discuss mailing list >>>>>>> members-discuss at ripe.net <mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net> >>>>>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>>>>>> Unsubscribe: >>>>>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/martin.millnert%40brainmill.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> members-discuss mailing list >>>>>>> members-discuss at ripe.net >>>>>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>>>>>> Unsubscribe: >>>>>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/sdy%40a-n-t.ru >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----------------------------- >>>>>> ? ????????? ???????? ??????? >>>>>> ??? "????? ??? ???????" >>>>>> +7(498)785-8-000 ???. >>>>>> +7(495)940-92-11 ???. >>>>>> +7(925)518-10-69 ???. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> members-discuss mailing list >>>>>> members-discuss at ripe.net >>>>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>>>>> Unsubscribe: >>>>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/ivaylo%40bglans.net >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----------------------------- >>>> ? ????????? ???????? ??????? >>>> ??? "????? ??? ???????" >>>> +7(498)785-8-000 ???. >>>> +7(495)940-92-11 ???. >>>> +7(925)518-10-69 ???. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----------------------------- >>>> ? ????????? ???????? ??????? >>>> ??? "????? ??? ???????" >>>> +7(498)785-8-000 ???. >>>> +7(495)940-92-11 ???. >>>> +7(925)518-10-69 ???. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> members-discuss mailing list >>>> members-discuss at ripe.net >>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss >>>> Unsubscribe: >>>> https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/options/members-discuss/ivaylo%40bglans.net >>>> >>> >> >> >> ----------------------------- >> ? ????????? ???????? ??????? >> ??? "????? ??? ???????" >> +7(498)785-8-000 ???. >> +7(495)940-92-11 ???. >> +7(925)518-10-69 ???. >> > ----------------------------- С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком" +7(498)785-8-000 раб. +7(495)940-92-11 доп. +7(925)518-10-69 сот.
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