[members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal (logarithmic)

Yes!
And it is why is need to reform budget of NCC too.
It is need to divide it by 2 path to.

So not in 2025, but in 2026 it will be good try to do.

> If you look at the current pricing model from RIPE's angle, everyone is
> equal in terms of making the budget. In a sense this diversification is
> good as each member is 1/21570th of the whole. In the big picture it does
> not really matter if someone is slightly late or cannot pay or it turns
> out that they're a high risk and aren't invoiced.
>
> With models where some would be paying a larger (or very large) share of
> the budget, revenue assurance (collections) is much more important.
>
> Also, not everyone needs to be happy with the fee structure. It is enough
> that the majority is. ??
>
>
>
> Kaj
> ________________________________
> From: Evgeniy Brodskiy <Evgeniy.Brodskiy at kyivstar.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 14:56
> To: Kaj Niemi <kajtzu at basen.net>
> Cc: Kurt Jaeger <members-discuss at nepustil.net>; members-discuss at ripe.net
> <members-discuss at ripe.net>; sdy at a-n-t.ru <sdy at a-n-t.ru>
> Subject: RE: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal (logarithmic)
>
> You don't often get email from evgeniy.brodskiy at kyivstar.net. Learn why
> this is important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification>
>
> Confidential/Конфіденційно
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> I agree with you, today there is practically no sense in shifting between
> RIRs.
>
> But if someone says you'll pay 10 times (or even bigger) what you pay
> today because the current fee is "simply unfair", inter RIRs transfer
> might be an option to think.
>
> In that case everything will be fair. Small LIR will stay in RIPE with
> fair, per single IP, share of spends and big LIRs will receive registry
> services from other RIRs.
>
>
>
> At least I don't see any other options to make everybody happy with fees.
>
>
>
> From: Kaj Niemi <kajtzu at basen.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 2:27 PM
> To: sdy at a-n-t.ru; Evgeniy Brodskiy <Evgeniy.Brodskiy at kyivstar.net>
> Cc: Kurt Jaeger <members-discuss at nepustil.net>; members-discuss at ripe.net
> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal (logarithmic)
>
>
>
> It is possible to transfer resources between the RIRs with a bunch of
> conditions attached and some caveats. For example:
>
>
>
>   1.  both RIRs must approve the intended transfer,
>
>   1.  there needs to be some kind of justification why it would need to
> occur,
>
>   1.  at least in LACNIC's case one would need to re-justify the incoming
> assignment using their rules,
>
>   1.  if addresses were considered legacy at RIPE, they would convert to
> non-legacy when being registered with LACNIC,
>
>   1.  you'd end up paying both sides of the transaction assuming you're
> controlling two LIRs under separate RIRs.
>
>
>
> So, it doesn't really make sense to try to "RIR shop" on price. Transfers
> might make sense if you want to consolidate assets for M&A purposes
> somewhere than where they originated.
>
>
>
> Realistically, if someone were to return IPv4 addresses to a RIR, the
> returned addresses would in practice instantly be gone as there are
> waiting lists for these.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Kaj
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: members-discuss
> <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net>>
> on behalf of Evgeniy Brodskiy via members-discuss
> <members-discuss at ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net>>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 13:28
> To: sdy at a-n-t.ru<mailto:sdy at a-n-t.ru> <sdy at a-n-t.ru<mailto:sdy at a-n-t.ru>>
> Cc: Kurt Jaeger
> <members-discuss at nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss at nepustil.net>>;
> members-discuss at ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net>
> <members-discuss at ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net>>
> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal (logarithmic)
>
>
>
> Confidential/Конфіденційно
>
> Maybe, but to be sure we all understand consequences for this "easy"
> solution to "complicated problem"  I have two questions:
>  - do LIRs have ability to transfer IPv4 networks between RIRs (because
> for the land example, transfer is not an option) ??
>  - is this transfer more complicated and costly than have fair share of
> RIPE spends ?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: members-discuss
> <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net>>
> On Behalf Of sdy at a-n-t.ru<mailto:sdy at a-n-t.ru>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 12:59 PM
> To: Evgeniy Brodskiy
> <Evgeniy.Brodskiy at kyivstar.net<mailto:Evgeniy.Brodskiy at kyivstar.net>>
> Cc: Kurt Jaeger
> <members-discuss at nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss at nepustil.net>>;
> members-discuss at ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net>
> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal (logarithmic)
>
> Sorry, but my 5 cents...
>
> Not only "result in some IPv4 addresses being transferred back to RIPE".
> Lets do not forget, It will decrease payment for LIR who could not take
> more IPv4 an AS.
> So, This will make the relationship between the NCC participants more
> honest too.
>
>> Confidential/Конфіденційно
>>
>> Hello Kurtis!
>>
>> I think there is one more circle. Some members simply want to increase
>> the cost of ownership IPv4 address space.
>> Perhaps, from their point of view, this will result in some IPv4
>> addresses being transferred back to RIPE.
>>
>>
>> P.S. I believe it is not, a lot of reasons why.
>>
>> From: members-discuss
>> <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net>>
>> On Behalf Of
>> Kurtis Lindqvist
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2024 11:56 AM
>> To: Kaj Niemi <kajtzu at basen.net<mailto:kajtzu at basen.net>>; Kurt Jaeger
>> <members-discuss at nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss at nepustil.net>>
>> Cc: members-discuss at ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net>
>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal
>> (logarithmic)
>>
>> You don't often get email from kurtis at linx.net<mailto:kurtis at linx.net>.
>> Learn why this is
>> important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification>
>>
>> Hi Kaj!
>>
>> Isn’t this really at the heart of the problem. In a Venn diagram there
>> are (at least) three circles here, the members with an opinion the
>> mailinglist who want to crystalise the core services and keep RIPE NCC
>> costs lower and see greater efficiency gains, there is the circle of
>> members who respond to the membership survey and are happy and want to
>> keep all services as they are and then there is a circle of the
>> members who actually vote (and possibly manage the payments). I am not
>> convinced there is a great overlap of these circles and so we end up
>> in a situation with very little guidance.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> - kurtis -
>> --
>> Kurt Erik Lindqvist, CEO
>> T: +44 (0) 20 7645 3528 |
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>> From: members-discuss
>> <members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.
> <mailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.net%3cmailto:members-discuss-bounces at ripe.%0b>>
> net>> on behalf of Kaj Niemi
>> <kajtzu at basen.net<mailto:kajtzu at basen.net<mailto:kajtzu at basen.net%3cmailto:kajtzu at basen.net>>>
>> Date: Tuesday, 16 April 2024 at 19:49
>> To: Kurt Jaeger
>> <members-discuss at nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss at nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss at nepustil.net%3cmailto:members-discuss at nepustil.net>>>
>> Cc:
>> members-discuss at ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net%3cmailto:members-discuss at ripe.net>>
>> <members-discuss at ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net%3cmailto:members-discuss at ripe.net>>>
>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal
>> (logarithmic)
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> Good points.
>>
>> On the topic of AFRINIC, I would slightly disagree. Membership numbers
>> have been increasing from about 1200 in 2018-ish, when they restated
>> revenue, at around 5.3M USD to the 6M-ish USD I mentioned in my
>> previous email. I haven't actively been following the story there but
>> assumed the legal troubles started FY2021-ish.. since revenue was
>> restated, there was probably something else going on earlier. They
>> spent about 140k on legal in 2022 although only non-audited numbers
>> exist. I'm reading it as if the legal issues themselves did not affect
>> revenue one way or another.
>>
>> As for RIPE, well, I'm advocating on spending less and crystallizing
>> the value prop because right now it's all over the place.
>>
>>
>>   1.  LIRs [must] pay because they need the registry services
>>   2.  In exchange they get a ton of services that many do not use at all
>>   3.  All services and functions are necessary because [list with many
>> reasons]
>>   4.  "We need to increase the fees because of 2 and 3"
>>   5.  Goto 1
>>
>> That being said, the gym analogy someone replied with a few days ago
>> is quite apt. Most people there, too, pay but do not use.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kaj
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Kurt Jaeger
>> <members-discuss at nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss at nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss at nepustil.net%3cmailto:members-discuss at nepustil.net>>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2024 8:06 PM
>> To: Kaj Niemi
>> <kajtzu at basen.net<mailto:kajtzu at basen.net<mailto:kajtzu at basen.net%3cmailto:kajtzu at basen.net>>>
>> Cc:
>> members-discuss at ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net%3cmailto:members-discuss at ripe.net>>
>> <members-discuss at ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net<mailto:members-discuss at ripe.net%3cmailto:members-discuss at ripe.net>>>
>> Subject: Re: [members-discuss] Charging scheme 2025 proposal
>> (logarithmic)
>>
>> [You don't often get email from
>> members-discuss at nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss at nepustil.net<mailto:members-discuss at nepustil.net%3cmailto:members-discuss at nepustil.net>>.
>> Learn why this is important at
>> https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ]
>>
>> Hi!
>>
>> Thanks for writing up those stats.
>>
>>> Let's do some napkin math and comps with the other RIRs. [...]
>>>
>>> RIPE, revenue 38M EUR (40M USD), members 20k = 2 k/member ARIN,
>>> revenue 25M USD, members 25k = 1 k/member APNIC, revenue 33M AUD (21M
>>> USD), members 10k = 2 k/member LACNIC, revenue 10M USD, members 12k =
>>> 0.8 k/member AFRINIC, revenue 6M USD, members 2k = 3 k/member
>> [...]
>>
>>> Now, in my opinion, there are a few surprises.
>>> ARIN, located in a very expensive country, is quite efficient per
>>> member.
>>
>> I think one has to analyse if ARIN and RIPE do the same when it comes
>> to reach-out, research etc. I'm not sure that ARIN is as active as
>> RIPE is. Also: The language barrier in the service area is much more
>> difficult to traverse than in the ARIN service area. And the RIPE has
>> to cope with a very difficult legal and political landscape compared
>> to ARIN.
>>
>>> On the other hand, AFRINIC seems to be rather inefficient.
>>
>> I would not hold that against AFRINIC, given their legal and political
>> landscape.
>>
>> --
>> MfG/Best regards, Kurt Jaeger                                Now what ?
>> Dr.-Ing. Nepustil & Co. GmbH  fon +49 7123 93006-0
>> pi at nepustil.net<mailto:pi at nepustil.net>
>> Rathausstr. 3                 mob +49 171 3101372
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С уважением Сербулов Дмитрий
ООО "Альфа Нет Телеком"
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+7(925)518-10-69 сот.