<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>Hello Denis,<br>
<br>
Thank you for your questions. Allow me to answer as many as I can
right now. As you indicated, getting the data for some of the
requests in your email from 9 December would require quite some
time and effort. Considering that Registry Services is currently
in the busiest time of the year, I would prefer to first identify
if this data would really be beneficial for the ongoing discussion
about the IPv4 waiting list policy and potential policy proposal.<br>
<br>
For example, you asked if some members with 10+ LIR accounts are
brokers or are from a certain country. What I can say is that
these members are quite diverse. They are located in several
countries inside and outside of our service region. <br>
Some of these 98 organisations only became members in the last two
years, while others opened multiple LIR accounts in the past
several years and so received multiple /22 IPv4 allocations under
the former "Last /8” policy, and later /24 IPv4 allocations under
the current policy. Those members received around 1,100 /22s
between September 2012 and November 2019, when the "Last /8"
policy was in place.<br>
<br>
As for your comments about consolidations, I would like to clarify
that the RIPE NCC uses this term when a member consolidates some
of their LIR accounts into another LIR account. When an LIR
receives resources that are restricted by a holding period, those
resources must be kept in that LIR account until the holding
period has passed. After that 24-month period, these members
usually decide to consolidate their LIR accounts, including their
resources. If a company were to take over one of its child
companies, this would be processed by the RIPE NCC as a merger of
two different legal bodies.<br>
<br>
To provide some more numbers, besides the 98 members that hold 10
or more accounts, we currently have 112 members that hold between
5 and 9 LIR accounts. <br>
The maximum amount of /24 allocations that a single member has
received under the current policy is 33. <br>
So far, no allocations received under the current waiting list
policy have been transferred due to the fact that the first such
allocation was provided around 24 months ago and almost all
allocations are still within their holding period.<br>
<br>
I hope this answers most of your questions.<br>
<br>
Kind regards,<br>
Marco Schmidt<br>
Assistant Manager Registry Services<br>
RIPE NCC <br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 14/12/2021 14:20, denis walker
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAKvLzuF1MV-4_cbHBEH5_ny+EtZdZgKxLdze4ye_BFXHJBG=pw@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Guys<br>
<br>
I have some more questions now as I dig deeper into these
allocations. Marco mentioned in his email that the situation is
quite fluid because of consolidations, transfers, and opening of
new LIR accounts that occur all the time. I have found the
transfer information, where can I find details of
consolidations? Also is the waiting list published anywhere? I
have seen companies with say 25 LIRs where 22 have already
received a /24 this year. I would like to know if the other 3
LIRs are on the waiting list and at what position.<br>
<br>
Now I have some detailed questions about what is meant by
consolidation. I will illustrate with an anonymous example. For
all my analysis I will not identify any company by name. My
intention is to expose behaviour.<br>
<br>
So we have a parent company ABC Networks BV. They set up 5 child
companies. One in 2017 and 4 in early 2019. One of them is XYZ
Networks BV.<br>
<br>
XYZ networks BV opens 12 LIRs. Throughout 2019 each of these
LIRs receive a /22 allocation. In December 2019 all these
LIRs/allocations moved to the parent company ABC Networks BV and
the child company XYZ Networks BV was deregistered according to
the Chamber of Commerce.<br>
<br>
In total the 5 child companies opened 50 LIRs. They each
received a /22 throughout 2019 and all these child companies
were deregistered in December 2019 with their LIRs/allocations
'transferred' to the parent company. Is this what is meant by
consolidation? Not sure what the business case is to register
several companies who open several LIRs each to get allocations,
then close the companies a few months later and merge all the
resources into the parent company...unless it is to try to hide
the true number of LIRs the parent company has set up.<br>
<br>
The timing is also interesting. All of these child companies
were merged with the parent company on 2 December 2019,
according to the Chamber of Commerce:<br>
"Merger deed passed on 02-12-2019. Acquiring legal entity: ABC
Networks BV Disappearing legal entities: XYZ Networks BV..."<br>
The child companies were then all deregistered on 5 December
2019, according to the Chamber of Commerce:<br>
"As of 5-12-2019, the legal entity has been deregistered due to
Termination of registration"<br>
<br>
According to the Transfer Statistics the date of the transfer of
the resources was 23 December 2019 from the child company XYZ
Networks BV to the parent company ABC Networks BV. The
ORGANISATION objects in the RIPE Database were also modified on
23 December 2019 to change the "org-name:" to that of the parent
company ABC Networks BV. But the child company XYZ Networks BV
did not exist on 23 December 2019. So was this a valid transfer?
This applies to all 50 of the allocated resources to these child
companies's LIRs.<br>
<br>
I suspect that when the merger took place on 2 December 2019 the
parent company took legal ownership of the assets of the child
company, including the LIR accounts with the allocated
resources. That means the transfer actually took place on 2
December 2019, not the 23 December 2019 as stated in the
Transfer Statistics. That makes the Transfer Statistics wrong.
If this is meant to be a legal document that is not good.
Something needs to be tightened up here. Maybe it is a chicken
& egg situation. The merger has to legally occur and
documents supplied to the RIPE NCC before the transfer can be
acknowledged. But then the transfer stats should make it clear
the transfer actually took place on 2 December when the merger
occurred, not the date it was acknowledged by the RIE NCC on 23
December.<br>
<br>
It is also not clear to me what has actually been
transferred/acquired? Is it the allocations or the LIR accounts
with the allocations? In the delegated stats there still exists
several entries for nl.xyz1, nl.xyz2, etc. These all refer to
the legal name of the parent company ABC Networks BV. Does this
mean the parent company has taken control (acquired) all 50 of
these LIR accounts with their allocations, not just the
allocations? Is this still a consolidation?<br>
<br>
Another general question. When a whole resource is transferred
(within RIPE region) it looks like the RIPE NCC deletes and
recreates the allocation object in the RIPE Database with
'todays' date as the creation date. But the entry in the
delegated stats keeps the original allocation date. Is this how
it is meant to be documented? (A good example of why a
historical query in the RIPE Database should show the full
history.)<br>
<br>
None of this is explained very well, or at all, in the policies
or documentation. It assumes people know a lot more about this
registration stuff than a database expert does (but I am
learning). If someone can answer these points it may well help
some of the new LIRs as well. I am sure there is a steep
learning curve here for the newbies.<br>
<br>
cheers<br>
denis<br>
co-chair DB-WG</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 at 17:17,
Albanian Hosting SH.P.K. via address-policy-wg <<a
href="mailto:address-policy-wg@ripe.net"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">address-policy-wg@ripe.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Hey Denis Walker,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>in 2019 until the end of december the last /22
allocation was assigned to the members/Lirs, once the ripe
stopped assigning /22, there was not that much interest in
2020 for only a /24 subnet. And no, it was not free! Since
in 2021 the price per IP skyrocketed, and ripe announced
that they are out of stock, due because of this and due
because the price per IP is going to the moon, the LIRs
(mostly big boys) with multiple allocations started to
apply for more and believe me they are making a good
profit from this. For now is 200€/month is the price for
/24 subnet to rent out, and it will be higher and higher.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers.<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<table
style="border-spacing:0px;border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(68,68,68);font-family:"Open
Sans",sans-serif;font-size:14px;width:414px"
cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td
style="padding:0px;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;line-height:14pt"
width="300" valign="bottom">
<table
style="border-spacing:0px;border-collapse:collapse;width:400px;font-size:9pt;line-height:normal"
cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0px 0px
6px;font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(23,147,206);width:259px"><span
style="color:rgb(135,135,135);font-size:10pt"><b>Sinqerisht / Sincerely,</b><br>
AlbHost</span></td>
<td style="padding:0px 0px
6px;width:141px;text-align:right"><a
href="https://www.albahost.net/"
style="background-color:transparent;color:rgb(51,122,183)"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><img
alt="Logo"
src="https://www.albahost.net/logo.png"
style="border: 0px none;
vertical-align: middle; width:
auto; height: 36px;"
moz-do-not-send="true" height="36"
border="0"></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="2"
style="padding:0px;width:400px;border-top:1px
solid rgb(23,147,206)" width="400"> </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="2"
style="padding:0px;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(44,44,44);width:400px"
width="400"><span>Albanian Hosting
SH.P.K.</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="2"
style="padding:0px;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(44,44,44);width:400px"
width="400"><span>Besim Beka p.n.</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="2"
style="padding:0px;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(44,44,44);width:400px"
width="400"><span>50000 Gjakovë,
Kosovë.<br>
NIPT/VAT ID: 811442657</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="2"
style="padding:0px;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(44,44,44);width:400px"
width="400"><span>T: +386900501502</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="2"
style="padding:0px;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(44,44,44);width:400px"
width="400"><span>E: <a
href="mailto:info@albahost.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">info@albahost.net</a></span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="2"
style="padding:0px;width:400px"
width="400"> </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td
style="padding:0px;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(23,147,206);width:200px;height:15px"
width="200"><span
style="display:inline-block;height:15px;font-size:9pt">W<b>: </b><a
href="http://www.albahost.net/"
style="font-weight:bold;background-color:transparent;color:rgb(51,122,183)"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:rgb(23,147,206)">wWw.AlbaHost.Net</span></a></span></td>
<td
style="padding:0px;width:200px;text-align:right"
width="200"><span
style="display:inline-block;height:15px"><span><a
href="https://www.facebook.com/albanianhosting"
style="background-color:transparent;color:rgb(51,122,183)"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><img
alt="Facebook icon"
src="https://codetwocdn.azureedge.net/images/mail-signatures/generator-dm/all-inclusive/fb.png"
style="border: 0px none;
vertical-align: middle;
height: 15px; width: 15px;"
moz-do-not-send="true"
width="15" height="15"
border="0"></a> </span><span><a
href="https://twitter.com/albahost"
style="background-color:transparent;color:rgb(51,122,183)"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><img
alt="Twitter icon"
src="https://codetwocdn.azureedge.net/images/mail-signatures/generator-dm/all-inclusive/tt.png"
style="border: 0px none;
vertical-align: middle;
height: 15px; width: 15px;"
moz-do-not-send="true"
width="15" height="15"
border="0"></a> </span><span><a
href="https://www.instagram.com/albahost_vpn/"
style="background-color:transparent;color:rgb(51,122,183)"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><img
alt="Instagram icon"
src="https://codetwocdn.azureedge.net/images/mail-signatures/generator-dm/all-inclusive/it.png"
style="border: 0px none;
vertical-align: middle;
height: 15px; width: 15px;"
moz-do-not-send="true"
width="15" height="15"
border="0"></a> </span></span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="2"
style="padding:0px;width:400px"
width="400"> </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="2" style="padding:4px 0px
0px;width:400px" width="400"><img
alt="Banner"
src="https://thinkbeforeprinting.org/struct/signature-1.gif"
style="border: 0px none;
vertical-align: middle;"
moz-do-not-send="true" border="0"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="2"
style="padding:0px;width:400px"
width="400"> </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="2"
style="padding:0px;width:400px;text-align:justify"
width="400">
<div style="text-align:center"><span
style="font-size:10.6667px;color:rgb(135,135,135);font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Përmbajtja
e këtij emaili është konfidenciale
dhe ka për qëllim marrësin e
specifikuar vetëm në mesazh.
Ndalohet rreptësisht shpërndarja e
ndonjë pjese të këtij mesazhi me
ndonjë palë të tretë, pa pëlqimin
me shkrim të dërguesit. Nëse e
keni marrë këtë mesazh gabimisht,
ju lutemi përgjigjuni këtij
mesazhi dhe ndiqni me fshirjen e
tij, në mënyrë që të sigurohemi që
një gabim i tillë të mos ndodhë në
të ardhmen.</span></div>
<font face="Arial, sans-serif"
color="#878787">
<div style="text-align:center"><span
style="font-size:8pt"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="text-align:center"><span
style="font-size:8pt">The
content of this email is
confidential and intended for
the recipient specified in
message only. It is strictly
forbidden to share any part of
this message with any third
party, without a written consent
of the sender. If you received
this message by mistake, please
reply to this message and follow
with its deletion, so that we
can ensure such a mistake does
not occur in the future.</span></div>
</font></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</td>
<td style="padding:0px" width="160"
valign="bottom" align="right"><br>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<table
style="border-spacing:0px;border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(68,68,68);font-family:"Open
Sans",sans-serif;font-size:14px;width:414px"
cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td
style="padding:0px;font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;line-height:14pt"
width="300" valign="bottom"><br>
</td>
<td style="padding:0px" width="160"
valign="bottom" align="right"><br>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
-- <br>
<br>
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, get a password
reminder, or change your subscription options, please visit: <a
href="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/address-policy-wg"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/address-policy-wg</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>