<html><body><span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#000; font-size:12pt;"><div>There is no incentive for a corporation to remove an abuser if the abuser is a paying customer.</div><div><br></div><div>There is also no incentive for RIR to create any sort of oversight, if that oversight requires investment.</div><div><br></div><div>Hence, the shit fight known as "the internet" that we have today.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
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-------- Original Message --------<br>
Subject: [anti-abuse-wg] Webzilla<br>
From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" <<a href="mailto:rfg@tristatelogic.com">rfg@tristatelogic.com</a>><br>
Date: Sun, March 17, 2019 7:15 am<br>
To: <a href="mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net">anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Perhaps some folks here might be interested to read these two report,<br>
the first of which is a fresh news report published just a couple of<br>
days ago, and the other one is a far more detailed investigative report<br>
that was completed some time ago now.<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/kenbensinger/dossier-gubarev-russian-hackers-dnc">https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/kenbensinger/dossier-gubarev-russian-hackers-dnc</a><br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5770258-Fti.html">https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5770258-Fti.html</a><br>
<br>
Please share these links widely.<br>
<br>
The detailed technical report makes it quite abundantly clear that<br>
Webzilla, and all of its various tentacles... many of which even I didn't<br>
know about until seeing this report... most probably qualifies as, and<br>
has qualified as a "bullet proof hosting" operation for some considerable<br>
time now. As the report notes, the company has received over 400,000<br>
complaints or reports of bad behavior, and it is not clear to me, from<br>
reading the report, if anyone at the company even bothered to read any<br>
more than a small handful of those.<br>
<br>
I have two comments about this.<br>
<br>
First, I am inclined to wonder aloud why anyone is even still peering<br>
with any of the several ASNs mentioned in the report. To me, the mere<br>
fact that any of these ASNs still have connectivity represents a clear<br>
and self-evident failure of "self policing" in and among the networks<br>
that comprise the Internet.<br>
<br>
Second, its has already been a well know fact, both to me and to many<br>
others, for some years now, that Webzilla is by no means alone in the<br>
category commonly refered to as "bullet proof hosters". This fact<br>
itself raises some obvious questions.<br>
<br>
It is clear and apparent, not only from the report linked to above, but<br>
from the continuous and years-long existance of -many- "bullet proof<br>
hosters" on the Internet that there is no shortage of a market for the<br>
services of such hosting companies. The demand for "bullet proof"<br>
services is clearly there, and it is not likely to go away any time<br>
soon. In addition to the criminal element, there are also various<br>
mischevious governments, or their agents, that will always be more<br>
that happy to pay premium prices for no-questions-asked connectivity.<br>
<br>
So the question naturally arises: Other than de-peering by other networks,<br>
are there any other steps that can be taken to disincentivize networks<br>
from participating in this "bullet proof" market and/or to incentivize<br>
them to give a damn about their received network abuse complaints?<br>
<br>
I have no answers for this question myself, but I felt that it was about<br>
time that someone at least posed the question.<br>
<br>
The industry generally, and especially in the RIPE region, has a clear<br>
and evident problem that traditional "self policing" is not solving.<br>
Worse yet, it is not even discussed much, and that is allowing it to<br>
fester and worsen, over time.<br>
<br>
It would be Good if there was some actual leadership on this issue, at<br>
least from -some- quarter. So far I have not noticed any such worth<br>
commenting about, and even looking out towards the future horizon, I<br>
don't see any arriving any time soon.<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
rfg<br>
<br>
</div>
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