<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px">(sorry for the top post but yahoo does a bad job with inline comments)<br><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_109692"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_109693"><span>Hi Leslie</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_109694"><span><br></span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_109738"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_109764">If you tick a box saying 'decline to state' many people will make assumptions that you have something to hide. Some people who are not open about some of these issues will also feel uncomfortable being presented with such questions if there is any doubt about the anonymity of the data. I have been there myself. I am very open these days but for half my life I was totally closeted. Had I been presented with such questions then I would have lied and given you the 'standard' answers rather than tell the truth or say no comment.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_110174" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_109764"><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_110178" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_109764">I am also "sure" the RIPE NCC would do it's best to keep such data private. But with such highly sensitive personal data we cannot have the same company collecting both the identifiable registration data and this sensitive data. There is no need to do that. There are companies that will manage the collection of the sensitive data separately. <br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_110574" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_109764"><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_110575" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_109764">I don't need to name anywhere but there is a country in the RIPE region that is currently executing gay people. The leader of a neighboring country is looking the other way and denying it is happening. There are several other countries who make no secret of their disgust about gay people. This is not the same as collecting attendees age or qualifications.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_110716" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_109764"><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_110733" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_109764">You cannot and must not attempt to do this 'on the cheap'. If you want to collect this information you must do it right.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_110797" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_109764"><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_110796" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_109764">cheers</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_110800" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_109764">denis</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_109737" class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div style="display: block;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_109702" class="yahoo_quoted"> <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_109701" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_109700" style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_110179" dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Leslie <geekgirl@gmail.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> David Hilario <d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net> <br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> "diversity@ripe.net" <diversity@ripe.net><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, 2 June 2017, 17:25<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [diversity] Options for gender on meeting registration<br> </font> </div> <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_109699" class="y_msg_container"><br><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_109698" dir="ltr">On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 8:10 AM, David Hilario<br clear="none"><<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net" href="mailto:d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net">d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">> Hi,<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> 1.<br clear="none">> Very sensitive data to collect.<br clear="none">> Really must be reviewed thoroughly by legal on how to collect, store<br clear="none">> and use such information.<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> I personally would feel very uncomfortable answering any of these questions!<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Does the "decline to state" option make you feel uncomfortable? These<br clear="none">are optional questions, so that we can collect demographic data with<br clear="none">which to track our progress in increasing diversity.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">><br clear="none">> 2.<br clear="none">> Is it really that wise to even have that survey prior to a meeting in UAE?<br clear="none">> It is illegal to be gay or transvestite there (unless something<br clear="none">> changed recently)...not the most appropriate questions when<br clear="none">> registering to visit a place where one if present will transgress<br clear="none">> local laws.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I'm sure that RIPE NCC will be able to collect and store the data in<br clear="none">an anonymized fashion. We are not intending to associate any<br clear="none">demographic data with any individual - instead we would like to have<br clear="none">metrics in order to gauge our progress.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">RIPE is an international community, and I know that common english<br clear="none">terms can vary widely between different areas. In the US, the term<br clear="none">'transvestite' is often used as a slur. Transgendered is the widely<br clear="none">accepted nomenclature. I find<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://www.transequality.org/issues/resources/transgender-terminology" target="_blank">http://www.transequality.org/issues/resources/transgender-terminology</a><br clear="none">to be a good guide for definitions of trans terminology.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Thanks!<br clear="none">Leslie<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">><br clear="none">> Cheers,<br clear="none">> David<br clear="none">> David Hilario<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> IP Manager<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> Larus Cloud Service Limited<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> p: +852 29888918 m: +359 89 764 1784<br clear="none">> f: +852 29888068<br clear="none">> a: Flat B5, 11/F, TML Tower, No.3 Hoi Shing Road, Tsuen Wan, HKSAR<br clear="none">> w: laruscloudservice.net<br clear="none">> e: <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net" href="mailto:d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net">d.hilario@laruscloudservice.net</a><br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">> On 2 June 2017 at 16:49, Amanda Gowland <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:agowland@ripe.net" href="mailto:agowland@ripe.net">agowland@ripe.net</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">>> Hi Denis,<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> Thanks for your feedback.<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> On 02/06/17 15:32, denis walker wrote:<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> Hi All<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> I am a bit late in getting into this group, but had a few pointers/concerns<br clear="none">>> sent to me.<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> I am not sure what the goals are with trying to measure all these metrics -<br clear="none">>> gender, sexuality, religion, race, class. What are you going to do if you<br clear="none">>> find only 1% of attendees are gay? Are you going to offer incentives to gay<br clear="none">>> people attending to increase it to the population average?<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> Did you watch the presentation from the plenary session on Friday morning or<br clear="none">>> read the RIPE Labs article? Those might be a good place to start for some<br clear="none">>> background info/context.<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> I am also DEEPLY concerned at the rush to get some question(s) on the<br clear="none">>> registration form for RIPE 75. What you are asking for is the most sensitive<br clear="none">>> and personal information people can give. With some of the countries in our<br clear="none">>> region, if this information gets into the wrong hands it can cost lives.<br clear="none">>> There are serious, serious, serious privacy concerns here.<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> Agree that it's sensitive info, which is why we want it to be opt-in...and<br clear="none">>> the scope of the questions we'll include is being discussed.<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> Amanda said "This data will only be used anonymously for metric<br clear="none">>> benchmarking."<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> Taken out of context a bit here, Denis. I wasn't making a statement, I was<br clear="none">>> suggesting options on text to include for background information.<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> Sorry, but before we get to how this data is going to be used:<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> -how is it going to be collected<br clear="none">>> -who is going to collect it<br clear="none">>> -how and where will it be stored<br clear="none">>> -who has access to the raw data<br clear="none">>> -how will the sensitive data be harvested from the personally identifiable<br clear="none">>> data<br clear="none">>> -are there Dutch/EU data protection issues with collecting/storing this data<br clear="none">>> in an identifiable way<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> We have a legal team that will be involved before anything is announced or<br clear="none">>> implemented. This thread is merely to find out the scope of a question we<br clear="none">>> *could* include on the form *if possible* in time for RIPE 75.<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> This is not something you announce on a Thursday with a deadline for a<br clear="none">>> decision on Monday. I hope a lot more thought and care will be applied to<br clear="none">>> potentially life threatening personal information.<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> Nothing's been announced. I was asking for input to include in our<br clear="none">>> discussion with SWE on Tuesday.<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> cheers<br clear="none">>> denis<br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> _______________________________________________<br clear="none">>> Diversity mailing list<br clear="none">>> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Diversity@ripe.net" href="mailto:Diversity@ripe.net">Diversity@ripe.net</a><br clear="none">>> <a shape="rect" href="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity" target="_blank">https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity</a><br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>><br clear="none">>> _______________________________________________<br clear="none">>> Diversity mailing list<br clear="none">>> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Diversity@ripe.net" href="mailto:Diversity@ripe.net">Diversity@ripe.net</a><br clear="none">>> <a shape="rect" href="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity" target="_blank">https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity</a><div class="yqt7152391904" id="yqtfd02734"><br clear="none">>><br clear="none">><br clear="none">> _______________________________________________<br clear="none">> Diversity mailing list<br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Diversity@ripe.net" href="mailto:Diversity@ripe.net">Diversity@ripe.net</a><br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" href="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity" target="_blank">https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Diversity mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Diversity@ripe.net" href="mailto:Diversity@ripe.net">Diversity@ripe.net</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity" target="_blank">https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity</a><br clear="none"></div></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></div></body></html>