<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170529"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170635">HI Brian</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170636"><br id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170637" clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170638">There are a number of points here that I must take issue with.</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170639"><br id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170640" clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170641" dir="ltr">"I've no doubt we're going to get some things wrong"</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170642" dir="ltr">You
cannot afford to get things wrong with this. In Chechnya gay and
transgendered people are being murdered. In Russia and most of the
middle east (where the next RIPE Meeting is to be held), to be
identified as gay or transgendered also puts your safety at risk. What
is 'important' is that you don't put anyone's safety at risk.<br id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170643" clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170644" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170645" clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170646" dir="ltr">I
am surprised you think the topic of how this data is collected
anonymously is just a detail to be passed onto someone else and to think
about it is considered micro management. This is a core issue. What
questions you ask are details. This data MUST be collected by a third
party organisation and never in any way associated with identifiable
registration data.</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170647" dir="ltr"><br id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170648" clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170649" dir="ltr">If
you don't do it this way the data you collect is meaningless anyway.
Making it 'opt-in' does not help. Anyone from parts of the region where
it is dangerous to be identified in this way will not simply 'opt-out'.
That in itself is a statement. They will opt-in and lie. That is what I
would do.<br id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170650" clear="none"></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170651"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170652"><br id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170653" clear="none"></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170654" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170655">I
would like some comment from the RIPE NCC on how they propose to
collect this sensitive information. And yes I do want technical details,
not just some vague comment and assurance. I will scrutinize the way
this is to be done and if I don't consider it safe I will continue to
object.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170656" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170657"><br id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170658" clear="none"></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170659" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170660">I object to this being done in a rushed (iterative) way for RIPE 75.<br id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170661" clear="none"></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170662" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170663"><br id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170664" clear="none"></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170665" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170666">cheers</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170667" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170668">denis</span></div><br id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170669" clear="none"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170530" class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div style="display: block;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170534" class="yahoo_quoted"> <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170533" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170532" style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170531" dir="ltr"> <font id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170535" face="Arial" size="2"> <hr id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170545" size="1"> <b id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170544"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170543" style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Brian Nisbet <brian.nisbet@heanet.ie><br> <b id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170542"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170541" style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> diversity@ripe.net <br> <b id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170537"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170536" style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, 3 June 2017, 10:59<br> <b id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170539"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170538" style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [diversity] Options for gender on meeting registration<br> </font> </div> <div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170540" class="y_msg_container"><br><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1496396781479_170670" dir="ltr">Morning,<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Denis, as you say, it's been a while. In most cases these days in the UK <br clear="none">and Ireland the preferred umbrella term is transgender. Of course <br clear="none">different people use different terms, but a number of the terms you've <br clear="none">used below would be considered offensive or, at best, a bit gauche.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">All of that said, we should be focusing on what we can do around <br clear="none">initial, opt-in, anonymised data collection.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">There is no question that any such information must be separated out and <br clear="none">proper data protection systems must be in place. The details of these <br clear="none">systems are not really for discussion here, that's for the NCC teams to <br clear="none">implement. They are the experts and we should trust them. We cannot, as <br clear="none">a group, micromanage every aspect of this.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">This is going to be an iterative process and I've no doubt we're going <br clear="none">to get some things wrong as we work to help the continual improvement of <br clear="none">the RIPE community. However it is important that we do act, in a <br clear="none">strategic fashion, and not go around and around in some attempt to reach <br clear="none">perfection.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Thanks,<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Brian<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Brian Nisbet<br clear="none">Network Operations Manager<br clear="none">HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education and Research Network<br clear="none">1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland<br clear="none">+35316609040 <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie" href="mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie">brian.nisbet@heanet.ie</a> www.heanet.ie<br clear="none">Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA No. 20036270<br clear="none"><div class="yqt2972858159" id="yqtfd72672"><br clear="none">denis walker wrote on 02/06/2017 20:17:<br clear="none">> Hi Leslie<br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">> "RIPE is an international community, and I know that common english<br clear="none">> terms can vary widely between different areas. In the US, the term<br clear="none">> 'transvestite' is often used as a slur. Transgendered is the widely<br clear="none">> accepted nomenclature. I find<br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" href="http://www.transequality.org/issues/resources/transgender-terminology" target="_blank">http://www.transequality.org/issues/resources/transgender-terminology</a><br clear="none">> to be a good guide for definitions of trans terminology."<br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">> You are right, it is not easy to get terminology right across borders.<br clear="none">> But this list is USA biased and that is not the same as in the UK for<br clear="none">> example. But in either case 'transvestite' is not the same as<br clear="none">> 'transgendered'. From this list 'transvestite' is synonymous with<br clear="none">> 'cross-dresser'.<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> It says, in the explanation for cross-dresser, "The older term<br clear="none">> "transvestite" is considered derogatory by many in the United States.".<br clear="none">> That is not the case in the UK. Whilst transvestite (trannie or tranny)<br clear="none">> and cross-dresser (CD) are to some extent interchangeable, they are<br clear="none">> often used in different contexts. In a profile on a personals web site<br clear="none">> you may say "Looking for a CD". But if you went to the gay village in<br clear="none">> Manchester and wanted to find one of the bars where many transvestites<br clear="none">> meet you would ask someone "where is the trannie bar?".<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> But of course these terms constantly evolve and it is a while since I<br clear="none">> was a regular in Manchester....so it may be all different now :)<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> cheers<br clear="none">> denis</div><br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">> _______________________________________________<br clear="none">> Diversity mailing list<br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Diversity@ripe.net" href="mailto:Diversity@ripe.net">Diversity@ripe.net</a><br clear="none">> <a shape="rect" href="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity" target="_blank">https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity</a><br clear="none">><br clear="none"><br clear="none">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Diversity mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Diversity@ripe.net" href="mailto:Diversity@ripe.net">Diversity@ripe.net</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity" target="_blank">https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity</a><div class="yqt2972858159" id="yqtfd49324"><br clear="none"></div></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></div></body></html>