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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">+1 to getting this circulated today<br>
<br>
On 16/05/2019 15:03, Brian Nisbet wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Sasha,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">We
absolutely don’t want people nit picking and wordsmithing by
committee just about works, it doesn’t by community.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I
think we can put it out there and solicit a response, but it
will have to be framed as something that is happening, and
while it will be an open discussion, nor will every point be
addressed, but we as a TF (it’s absolutely not all on you at
all!) need to be able to justify our decisions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">So
a lot of it will be, “Please provide any feedback, which
will be considered and possibly included in a 2<sup>nd</sup>
draft.” I’m happy to lead that process on the mailing list,
as others may be?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">For
me, the mandate will come from a general consensus of the
community. The accountability… to the RIPE Chair and (soon
to exist) Vice-Chair? Or to the Exec Board? I’m hoping
others might have some thoughts here as well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">There
does have to be some appeal (and the groups above might
work, with the Vice-Chair position in existence it might
cover some of the problems with a potential Chair being in
violation of the CoC?), but I haven’t got anything better
than the existing structures and all of them have some
issues, so which are the least bad.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I’m
very worried, given it’s the Friday before the meeting, that
really presenting this at RIPE78 is going to be difficult.
But given there were no objections, I think what I can do
today is formally present the text as is to HPH and see what
he reckons. (It doesn’t have to be me, at all, but I’m happy
to do it.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Brian<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Brian Nisbet <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Service Operations Manager<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National Education
and Research Network<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC, Dublin
D01 X8N7, Ireland<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">+35316609040 <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie">brian.nisbet@heanet.ie</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.heanet.ie">www.heanet.ie</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA
No. 20036270<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm
0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
lang="EN-US"> diversity
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:diversity-bounces@ripe.net"><diversity-bounces@ripe.net></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Sasha Romijn<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday 14 May 2019 19:51<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:diversity@ripe.net">diversity@ripe.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [diversity] CoC Draft & Action
Items<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Brian,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think these are good next steps. I am
a bit concerned about how to handle the response from the
wider community. We indeed don’t want dozens of e-mails
nitpicking every word, and this is a document where that
risk is more significant than your average RIPE document.
Also because there is a limited amount of time and energy
I can put into responding and explaining things -
responding to comments from 8 people on this list is still
quite doable, but if there’s going to be 40 people
commenting on the RIPE list, there’s limits to what I can
and will do. Unless someone starts funding my work.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So, some thought in advance about how
we could smoothen this process would be useful. I have no
ideas.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regarding the CoC team structure,
mandate, process, etc., there will be questions if we
circulate the text without this covered, so we’d need to
explain that work on that is still ongoing. I expect this
may be a more controversial point for the community,
because it creates a new power structure that does not
entirely fall under existing structures.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Someone also raised, in the google doc
comments, concerns about an option for reconsideration of
a decision by different people, if someone feels the
decision of the CoC team was unjustified.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As I said in my recent e-mail, I have
some early ideas about the team layout - those are in no
way fixed. But I don’t really have any ideas on mandate,
accountability, and at the same time guaranteeing
independence, preventing excessive bureaucracy or fights
on ripe-list about every CoC decision. We do need to start
working on this to have any chance of putting something
into operation by RIPE79.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sasha<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 10 May 2019, at 10:51, Brian
Nisbet <<a href="mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie"
moz-do-not-send="true">brian.nisbet@heanet.ie</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So, my thoughts on how we
should proceed on all of this. These are just
thoughts btw.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-top:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1">
Present the full text to the RIPE Chair and
discuss next steps<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-top:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1">
Circulate the text to the community<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-top:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1">
Possible LT at RIPE78<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-top:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1">
Further input from the community<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-top:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1">
Into operation for RIPE79<o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What I certainly don’t want is
wordsmithing by the community, nor would I expect
the WG Chairs or the PC to be the CoC team.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This is all pretty high level,
but it’s a notion? I think we would need Mirijam
or Amanda to make sure that HPH has some cycles to
look at this over the next few days, without
rushing him?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Brian<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Brian Nisbet<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Service Operations Manager<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">HEAnet CLG, Ireland's
National Education and Research Network<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">1st Floor, 5 George's Dock,
IFSC, Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">+35316609040<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">brian.nisbet@heanet.ie</span></a><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="http://www.heanet.ie/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">www.heanet.ie</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Registered in Ireland, No.
275301. CRA No. 20036270<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
class="apple-converted-space"><span
lang="EN-US"> </span></span><span
lang="EN-US">Sasha Romijn <<a
href="mailto:sasha@mxsasha.eu"
moz-do-not-send="true">sasha@mxsasha.eu</a>><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday
7 May 2019 14:43<br>
<b>To:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Brian
Nisbet <<a
href="mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie"
moz-do-not-send="true">brian.nisbet@heanet.ie</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:diversity@ripe.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">diversity@ripe.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[diversity] CoC Draft & Action Items</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The draft is waiting for me
to merge some more suggested changes and fix
some things raised in the thread.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If all goes well, I can
wrap that up this week.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Based on the responses on
the draft, we seem to mostly agree on it
otherwise.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As Amanda said, there is
still the question of the CoC team, which
handles CoC incidents, and how they get a
mandate. I have some<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b><u>rough</u></b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>thoughts
on that.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As I’ve argued before, I
think this role should not rest with the WG
chairs or with the RIPE chair. The best option
is likely a specific CoC team. Considering the
structure of this community with a mix of
online spaces and conferences, my first
thought is one team, of which at least 4
people should be present and available at any
RIPE meeting. Attending (all) RIPE meetings
should not be a requirement, as RIPE meetings
are not accessible to all, so it would be
exclusionary. Having a single team helps some
continuity, ongoing development, and
consistency.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’m not sure whether we
should retain the trusted contacts as a
separate team. I guess that could be very
confusing.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The team needs to have an
independent mandate, which includes measures
like banning of a person from a conference, or
terminating an ongoing talk.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regarding who should be in
it, I’m not sure how to work that out within
the governance models of the RIPE community.
In Django, the first CoC committee was formed
ages ago, and mostly consisted of people
involved in introducing the CoC at the time.
The committee self-governs, asking for new
volunteers when needed. The committee has a
mandate from the board of the Django Software
Foundation, and is also accountable to them.
That board is in turn elected by the
membership of that foundation. So in general
there is self-management and delegation of
mandate, but with accountability and
reporting. The board can intervene if needed.
I believe the Python Software Foundation has
or is working on a similar model.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">CoC team members also need
to know what they’re getting into, and ensure
they have sufficient availability. Especially
on-site at a meeting, action may need to
happen fast. Which means being reachable and
able to change plans suddenly. Also, CoC work
can be emotionally intense. Sometimes it’s
really hard to decide whether it’s a violation
and what should be done, sometimes incidents
occur that are very serious and have a heavy
impact. A lot of empathy work is involved. It
also means your own behaviour is under the
heaviest scrutiny of pretty much anyone at the
conference, because as a team member you set
the example of what is acceptable. This
extends to every interaction related to the
conference. It means you absolutely can not
get a bit drunk at the party and blurt out a
few sexist jokes - if we fail to set an
example, the process falls apart (the #1
reason for me not to report incidents is
because I don’t trust the response team). And,
not everyone will like every decision you
make, so especially team members from minority
groups are at an increased risk of abusive
behaviour from others. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">For training my first
choice: <a
href="https://otter.technology/code-of-conduct-training/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">https://otter.technology/code-of-conduct-training/</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have not followed this
training myself yet, but I have universally
heard good things about it.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(And CoC team members
should not be required to pay out of pocket
for this, as that would be exclusionary.)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So, a big question is:
within the processes of the RIPE community,
how does a CoC response team get a mandate? To
whom is it accountable and how? Can it
self-manage members?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">And also essential: we
should prevent the CoC team from being dragged
into months of discussion for every decision,
just because one or two people who don’t like
it stir up discussion on a mailing list - I do
see this as a potential risk in the RIPE
community due to its structure. Also, no
process may depend on a single person.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(I will not be attending
RIPE78 btw)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sasha<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 7 May 2019, at
15:00, Brian Nisbet <<a
href="mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">brian.nisbet@heanet.ie</span></a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Folks,<br>
<br>
I'm just wondering, where do we,
collectively, believe the action item
(or similar) lies at present with the
draft for the new CoC.<br>
<br>
From my reading there was an amount of
feedback provided, but is the draft at
a point where it can be officially
shared with HPH, other stakeholders
and the community, or is there more
work to do? We have under two weeks
before RIPE78 begins and I worry that
we aren't in a good place to share our
work (while absolutely noting that
people might be waiting for me to do
something?).<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Brian<br>
<br>
Brian Nisbet<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Service Operations Manager<br>
HEAnet CLG, Ireland's National
Education and Research Network<br>
1st Floor, 5 George's Dock, IFSC,
Dublin D01 X8N7, Ireland<br>
+35316609040<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:brian.nisbet@heanet.ie"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">brian.nisbet@heanet.ie</span></a><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="http://www.heanet.ie/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">www.heanet.ie</span></a><br>
Registered in Ireland, No. 275301. CRA
No. 20036270<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
diversity mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:diversity@ripe.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">diversity@ripe.net</span></a><br>
<a
href="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:purple">https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
diversity mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:diversity@ripe.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">diversity@ripe.net</a><br>
<a
href="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
diversity mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:diversity@ripe.net">diversity@ripe.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity">https://lists.ripe.net/mailman/listinfo/diversity</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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