<html><head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">Forgive me if this has
already been mentioned in this thread (it's Friday), but is there not a
policy stating a mandatory wait time before a new LIR can be merged into
another?<br>
<br>
If NCC staff can see that 1 LIR is opening new LIR's (even with another
new legal entity behind it), this can be then sent to a review board to
either allow or deny the merge. NCC staff will have the most experience
with this, if they can see someone blatantly breaking the policy they
should be able to at least push the applications to an entity to stop
this behavior.<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>--<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Hal Ponton<br>
Senior Network Engineer<br>
<br>
Buzcom / FibreWiFi<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<span>
</span><br>
<blockquote style="border: 0px none;"
cite="mid:alpine.LNX.2.00.1602121354580.13756@server.resilans.se"
type="cite">
<div style="margin:30px 25px 10px 25px;" class="__pbConvHr"><div
style="width:100%;border-top:1px solid #EDEEF0;padding-top:5px"> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:49%;">
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stolpe@resilans.se"
style="color:#737F92
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:bold;text-decoration:none
!important;">Daniel Stolpe</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#9FA2A5"><span style="padding-left:6px">12
February 2016 at 13:27</span></font></div> </div></div>
<div style="color:#888888;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"
__pbrmquotes="true" class="__pbConvBody">
<br>On Thu, 11 Feb 2016, Sascha Luck [ml] wrote:
<br>
<br>
<br>+1
<br>
<br>Of course whenever you have rules, someone will be trying to get
around
them. Stopping "single legal entities" to open additional LIR:s will not
make it impossible to still get several /22:s but at least we will not
encourage such behaviour. At the time for RIPE 71 I was told that NCC
staff were very frustrated because they could see this kind of
applications and there were not much they could do about it.
<br>
<br>Apparently there are/were cases when entities - or natural persons -
were opening *lots* of LIR:s in order to merge them as soon as they
received the /22 IPv4.
<br>
<br>Cheers,
<br>
<br>Daniel
<br>
<br>_________________________________________________________________________________
<br>Daniel Stolpe Tel: 08 - 688 11 81
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stolpe@resilans.se">stolpe@resilans.se</a>
<br>Resilans AB Fax: 08 - 55 00 21 63
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.resilans.se/">http://www.resilans.se/</a>
<br>Box 45 094 556741-1193
<br>104 30 Stockholm
<br>
<br>
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<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ripe-md@c4inet.net"
style="color:#737F92
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!important;">Sascha Luck [ml]</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#9FA2A5"><span style="padding-left:6px">11
February 2016 at 16:34</span></font></div> </div></div>
<div style="color:#888888;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"
__pbrmquotes="true" class="__pbConvBody">On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at
05:25:09PM +0100, Gert Doering wrote:
<br>
<br>
<br>That I could get behind, because this offence, as stated,
<br>requires two facts to be true:
<br>
<br>a) an entity opens another LIR
AND
<br>b) it does so in order to circumvent policy
<br>
<br>So, opening another LIR would require the NCC to ascertain motive
<br>before it approves the second LIR and *that* I could live with.
<br>For instance, someone trying to open $lots_of_lirs in a short
<br>time frame would be strong circumstantial evidence that they are
<br>up to no good...
<br>
<br>rgds,
<br>SAscha Luck
<br>
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style="width:100%;border-top:1px solid #EDEEF0;padding-top:5px"> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:49%;">
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gert@space.net"
style="color:#737F92
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:bold;text-decoration:none
!important;">Gert Doering</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#9FA2A5"><span style="padding-left:6px">11
February 2016 at 16:25</span></font></div> </div></div>
<div style="color:#888888;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"
__pbrmquotes="true" class="__pbConvBody"><div>Hi,<br></div><div><!----><br>Right.<br><br>(And
as such, I follow this discussion with some mild amusement - very<br>engaged,
and most of it totally missing the question asked).<br><br>For the
record: the policy we have seems to work as it was designed, namely,<br>"new
LIRs can still get IPv4 addresses". Can they get as much as they want?
<br>No. Would they get as much as they want if we loosen up the
policy? No(!).<br>Would that hurt later entrants into the market? Yes.<br><br>Thus,
I think the NCC should not permit single entities to open up multiple<br>LIRs
to weasel around policy restrictions.<br><br>Gert Doering<br> --
no hats<br></div><div>----<br>If you don't want to receive emails from
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on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here,
you can add or remove addresses.</div></div>
<div style="margin:30px 25px 10px 25px;" class="__pbConvHr"><div
style="width:100%;border-top:1px solid #EDEEF0;padding-top:5px"> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:49%;">
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:h.lu@anytimechinese.com"
style="color:#737F92
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:bold;text-decoration:none
!important;">h.lu@anytimechinese.com</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#9FA2A5"><span style="padding-left:6px">11
February 2016 at 16:15</span></font></div> </div></div>
<div style="color:#888888;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"
__pbrmquotes="true" class="__pbConvBody"><meta content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="content-type"><div>Hi</div><div><br></div><div>I
think one thing need to be clarified here, if I am not mistaken, Gert
and Sander should confirm this as well, how many LIR can a single entity
open is an member issue, how many IP each LIR get, should LIR return
address, should v4 allocation request to have v6 in place first etc, is
an policy issue need to be discussed in policy mailing list.</div><div><br>在
2016年2月11日，下午5:09，Tim Armstrong <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tim@treestle.com">tim@treestle.com</a>> 写道：<br><br></div><blockquote
type="cite"><div>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">
That's not viable yet, have you seen how fragmented th v6 table is,
even Tier 1 ISPs have gaps.<br>
<br>
I would argue that we just reduce the allocation for additional
LIRs. That is if a single legal entity (or it's subsidiaries)
register a new LIR, then the new LIR registered can only receive a
/24 not a /22.<br>
<br>
This way no one would act in bad faith trying to skirt the rules,
and young ISPs still have the ability to grow without feeling
significantly choked.<br>
<br>
-Tim<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/02/16 17:02, Janis Jaunosans
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:56BCB0A2.4080502@streamnetworks.lv">just get ipv6.
<br>
<br>
On 11/02/16 17:58, Matthias Šubik wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Additionally …
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">On 11.02.2016, at 16:26, Simon Lockhart
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:s.lockhart@cablecomnetworking.co.uk"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"><s.lockhart@cablecomnetworking.co.uk></a>
wrote:
<br>
<br>
On Thu Feb 11, 2016 at 04:22:14PM +0100, Sebastian Wiesinger
wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">* Nigel Titley
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:exec-board@ripe.net"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"><exec-board@ripe.net></a>
[2016-02-11 12:02]:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">2. If this activity is a problem
that must be prevented, what action
<br>
should the RIPE NCC take to attempt its prevention?
<br></blockquote>
Do not allow additional LIR accounts for a member.
<br></blockquote>
I would concur.
<br>
<br>
One legal entity, one LIR. This should be easy for RIPE to
implement, given
<br>
that they require evidence of company registration or
equivalent when
<br>
establishing an LIR.
<br></blockquote>
Even if it is possible to open more legal entities in the RIPE
region, when requiring an exclusive contact person it makes it
not any harder for really new members, but harder for self
cloning of members.
<br>
<br>
It might even be needed, to require the new contact person to
complete the RIPE course, to slow down abusive behavior.
<br>
The use of a simple nominee is therefor more difficult than
without the course requirement.
<br>
<br>
just my two cents
<br>
Matthias
<br>
<br>
<br></blockquote>
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From here, you can add or remove addresses.<br></blockquote>
<br>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>----</span><br><span>If
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<div style="margin:30px 25px 10px 25px;" class="__pbConvHr"><div
style="width:100%;border-top:1px solid #EDEEF0;padding-top:5px"> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:49%;">
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:tim@treestle.com"
style="color:#737F92
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:bold;text-decoration:none
!important;">Tim Armstrong</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#9FA2A5"><span style="padding-left:6px">11
February 2016 at 16:09</span></font></div> </div></div>
<div style="color:#888888;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"
__pbrmquotes="true" class="__pbConvBody">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">
That's not viable yet, have you seen how fragmented the v6 table is,
even Tier 1 ISPs have gaps.<br>
<br>
I would argue that we just reduce the allocation for additional
LIRs. That is if a single legal entity (or it's subsidiaries)
register a new LIR, then the new LIR registered can only receive a
/24 not a /22.<br>
<br>
This way no one would act in bad faith trying to skirt the rules,
and young ISPs still have the ability to grow without feeling
significantly choked.<br>
<br>
-Tim<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/02/16 17:02, Janis Jaunosans
wrote:<br>
</div>
<br>
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account and go to the general page:<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/">https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/</a><br><br>Click
on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here,
you can add or remove addresses.</div></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
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