<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted Char";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0
{mso-style-name:msonormal;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
span.HTMLPreformattedChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML Preformatted Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML Preformatted";
font-family:Consolas;}
span.EmailStyle21
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;
font-weight:normal;
font-style:normal;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Hi Tim,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I agree, although the answer to that question from purveyors of mailing lists might not be accurate.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>The broker bears responsibility and there should be some action.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Regards,<br>Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Tim Armstrong [mailto:t.armstrong@nerdalize.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 07, 2017 10:17 AM<br><b>To:</b> Mike Burns <mike@iptrading.com><br><b>Cc:</b> Alex Lobachov <alxl@telenet.lv>; members-discuss@ripe.net<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [members-discuss] Database Abuse<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hi Mike,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I think asking if such a list comes from scraping the DB should be part of a brokers due diligence, should it not? If for nothing else than as a matter of civility towards those you are contacting.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Tim.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" target="_blank">mike@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Hello Alex,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>As a broker, LIR, and contact for some address blocks in RIPE and ARIN, I receive these solicitations as well, and it is particularly bothersome getting solicited from other brokers who should know better.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>I would support administrative action against LIRs or registered brokers at RIPE who abuse the DB, but what if these people are buying a list of email addresses which they are not aware was scraped from the DB? Would that offer some defense?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>Mike Burns</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> members-discuss [mailto:<a href="mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net" target="_blank">members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Alex Lobachov<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 07, 2017 5:24 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank">members-discuss@ripe.net</a></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [members-discuss] Database Abuse<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Good day,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>I’m all for administrative actions to LIR members (usually guys who are involved in ipv4 transfers) who are found guilty of using the DB with commercial goals.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Closing the LIR might be the appropriate (yet quite aggressive one) action for them.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Comments?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><br>--<br>Alex Lobachov<br>Telenet, sia<br>Network Systems Engineer<br>LinkedIn: <a href="https://lv.linkedin.com/in/allxll" target="_blank">https://lv.linkedin.com/in/allxll</a><br>E-mail: <a href="mailto:alxl@telenet.lv" target="_blank">alxl@telenet.lv</a><br>Skype: alxl__<br>Direct office: <a href="tel:+371%2067%20886%20224" target="_blank">+371 67886224</a><br>Office: <a href="tel:+371%2067%20711%20111" target="_blank">+371 67711111</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> <a href="mailto:t.armstrong@nerdalize.com" target="_blank" title="t.armstrong@nerdalize.com">Tim Armstrong</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> Thursday, September 7, 2017 11:17 AM</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> <a href="mailto:vegard@monsternett.no" target="_blank" title="vegard@monsternett.no">Vegard Svanberg</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>Cc:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> <a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank" title="members-discuss@ripe.net">members-discuss@ripe.net</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black'> Re: [members-discuss] Database Abuse</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Or if your details are in the list and / or you are a technical contact attached to an LIR then you can see everything. </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Only non-technical / non-LIR people can't access it.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Perhaps use passing the RIPE DB Training course as a requirement for access.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>On 7 Sep 2017 10:06 am, "Vegard Svanberg" <<a href="mailto:vegard@monsternett.no" target="_blank">vegard@monsternett.no</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>* Tim Armstrong <<a href="mailto:t.armstrong@nerdalize.com" target="_blank">t.armstrong@nerdalize.com</a>> [2017-09-05 10:36]:<br><br>> I hate to bring this subject up again, but is there really nothing<br>> structural we can do about this? <br>> At a minimum we could occlude e-mail addresses from the public DB,<br>> instead having public complaint submitted via a webform on the NCC<br>> website, requiring the uninitiated to realise this is an abuse /<br>> complaint contact, not a sales opportunity.<br><br>I understand the problem (and get those pitches myself nearly daily). I<br>have no alternative, simple solutions. I also haven't thought this<br>through in detail. :-) However, and despite all that: I'd oppose the<br>idea of hiding/obfuscating emails and centralising/limiting feedback<br>loops to the NCC website. I'm concerned about the operational<br>consequences of limiting the opportunity to collect emails and build and<br>maintain lists of contact points (potentially) important for operations.<br><br>And if we remove just emails, we'd probably have to do the same with<br>phone numbers. They're calling from time to time as well.<br><br>Again, I haven't thought this through, but it's the knee-jerk response<br>anyway. Perhaps naming, shaming and blacklisting the offenders might be<br>a better way to go. Perhaps verified members could get regular database<br>dumps (including contact info) from other sources, or authenticate<br>against the db to get the whole lot. I don't know. I'm not sure the<br>problem is big enough to warrant any major changes.<br><br>--<br>-o) Vegard Svanberg, MD - Monsternett (<a href="http://www.monsternett.no" target="_blank">www.monsternett.no</a>)<br>/\\ Violgata 3A, N-1776 HALDEN, NORWAY<br>_\_v Phone: <a href="tel:%28%2B47%29%2069701802" target="_blank">(+47) 69701802</a> | Fax: <a href="tel:%28%2B47%29%2069701801" target="_blank">(+47) 69701801</a><br><br><br>----<br>If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss<br>mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page:<br><a href="https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/" target="_blank">https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/</a><br><br>Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.</span><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>----<br>If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss<br>mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page:<br><a href="https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/" target="_blank">https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/</a><br><br>Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><br>----<br>If you don't want to receive emails from the RIPE NCC members-discuss<br>mailing list, please log in to your LIR Portal account and go to the general page:<br><a href="https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/" target="_blank">https://lirportal.ripe.net/general/</a><br><br>Click on "Edit my LIR details", under "Subscribed Mailing Lists". From here, you can add or remove addresses.<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><img border=0 width=96 height=31 style='width:1.0in;height:.3263in' id="_x0000_i1026" src="https://drive.google.com/a/nerdalize.com/uc?id=0B0EM3I3SZxdsdnBncG41WkNSeWp2V3I5Q0NubGVOaUxFNWx3&export=download"><o:p></o:p></p></div><pre style='white-space:pre-wrap'><b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#888888'>Tim Armstrong<br></span></b><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#888888'>Dark Lord of Network Operations<br></span><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#999999;background:white'><a href="tel:+31617544472" target="_blank">+31 6 175 444 72</a></span><o:p></o:p></pre></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>