<div dir="ltr"><div>Good evening,<br></div><div><br></div><div>The model 2 seems to be more equitable, but not in the proposed format. The IP numbers are way too low and it looks like the smallest lirs would just subsidize the largest. Maybe we can do 10 categories if we don't want to charge per /24.</div><div>I think we need more data about the number of LIRs which would fit into each category, with multiple options for the categories. It's impossible to make a reasonable decision without this data.</div><div><br></div><div>I also agree that we should try to reduce the budget if that's required to keep the membership costs to a reasonable level.</div><div><br></div><div>Maybe we can provide a discount to the members who have deployed IPv6 so we can encourage the IPv6 deployment?</div><div><br></div><div>Regards</div><div>Bogdan Ionescu<br></div><div>MVPS Ltd<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 4:50 PM Josh Jameson <<a href="mailto:josh@servebyte.com">josh@servebyte.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Hi Łukasz,</p>
<p>After speaking with you privately I would like to defend the IP
recycling point. Regardless of private sale or recycling of IP
blocks, I believe it would have a positive impact on the
availability of IPv4 space.<br>
</p>
<p><a href="https://www.ripe.net/analyse/statistics/number-of-lirs" target="_blank">https://www.ripe.net/analyse/statistics/number-of-lirs</a></p>
<p>As you can see from the graph, no more IPv4 means we have
stagnated with member count. IMHO as a business man, there is very
little reason to join RIPE as a LIR if you can't get a single IPv4
block included in your membership fee. Which as it stands today,
is true. The wait list is a joke for new members. So that leaves
registering through a LIR and paying the LIR for services, instead
of RIPE directly.</p>
<p><b>I propose <u>removing</u> the upper cap of 8,000 euros for a
Category 5 LIR.</b><br>
</p>
<p>Supply and demand will reduce the resale value of IPv4 blocks.
This means it may not make financial sense to hoard IPv4 blocks an
org isn't using. It will generate an incentive to resell or
recycle IP blocks instead of hoarding them for no penalty, which
is the current RIPE fee structure. The possibility to acquire more
IPv4 space in RIPE becomes a possibility again - perhaps have a
scheme where if someone recycled a block, they get priority to
claim back in the future.</p>
<p>As far as I'm concerned <b>Category 5 isn't where fees should
even start to end</b>. Everyone should be paying for their fair
share. If RIPE's budget hits 50 million, fine - let's get IPv6
actually switched over with that money.<br>
</p>
<div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Josh Jameson</div>
<div>Technical Director</div>
<div>ServeByte Ltd<br>
</div>
</div>
<p><br>
<br>
</p>
<div>On 09/03/2023 20:24, Łukasz Jarosz
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Hi,</div>
<div>I always liked math so after reading this whole topic I
decided to do some. </div>
<div>I reviewed Ivaylo calculations and adjusted them to simply
divide RIPE budget of 40mil and divided it by RIPE
operated/owned IP space size and I came to price of 0,06EUR per
IPv4 address (which is very little compared to fees for static
IP space that most of the big telecoms charge). </div>
<div>Thus according to this calculations to evenly contribute to
RIPE budget:</div>
<ul>
<li>
<div>my small LIR announcing 3072 IPv4 addresses should be
paying 184,32 EUR </div>
</li>
<li>
<div>Daniel Pearsons (hoarding - as was called by Josh Jameson
) LIR should be paying 4024,32 EUR</div>
</li>
<li>
<div>Josh Jameson's AS60751 should be paying 107,52 EUR </div>
</li>
<li>
<div>Deutsche Telecom AS3320 (assuming that all of its
announced IPv4 space belongs to RIPE region) according to <a href="http://bgp.he.net" title="bgp.he.net" target="_blank">bgp.he.net</a> announces
34 109 952 IPv4 address thus should contribute 2 046 597,12
EUR</div>
</li>
<li>
<div>Orange Poland AS5617 (that's not their only one ASN :wink
wink:) according to <a href="http://bgp.he.net" title="bgp.he.net" target="_blank">bgp.he.net</a> announces
5 510 400 IPv4 addresses thus should contribute 330 624 EUR</div>
</li>
</ul>
<br>
<div>I can go on like this for a while about another
organizations, but I hope you get the picture, that
argumentation that financial incentives will help IPv4 recycling
is complete <strong>SCAM AND LIE</strong>.</div>
<div>Furthermore let's make another calculation. In Poland average
price per ISP service is about 12 EUR per month which adds up to
144 EUR per year. So I can make 442 368 EUR per year out of this
IPv4 space. Thus in model 1 and 2 my prognosed current fee of
2050 EUR is about 0,4% of my yearly revenue. Let's take as
example Deutsche Telekom, which according to random google
search last year [1] had revenue of about 114 400 000 000 EUR.
We can easily calculate that their current fee of 2050 EUR
(assuming only their ASN in model 1) is 1,79e-6 % of their
revenue. That's over 200 000 times less. Even with my previously
calculated 2 046 496,12 EUR fee that is only 0,001% of their
revenue. Now it would be only 20 times smaller revenue
percentage.</div>
<div>Regardless of this offtopic analysis, I really want to put
stress on three points:</div>
<ul>
<li>
<div><strong>Calling any of these charging models fair and
aimed at helping recycling IPv4 is outrageous insult and
lie. </strong></div>
</li>
<li>
<div><strong>I hope that finally we as community realise that
RIPE funding scheme heavily favours big resource holders
and this need to change. </strong></div>
</li>
<li>
<div><strong>Only sustainable solution for IPv4 address space
usage is to finally move to IPv6 where resources is enough
for everyone everytime .</strong></div>
</li>
</ul>
<br>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div>Lukasz Jarosz</div>
<br>
<div>[1] <a href="https://www.telekom.com/en/investor-relations/publications/financial-results/financial-results-2022" title="https://www.telekom.com/en/investor-relations/publications/financial-results/financial-results-2022" target="_blank">https://www.telekom.com/en/investor-relations/publications/financial-results/financial-results-2022</a></div>
<br>
<br>
<div>On mar 9 2023, at 3:38 pm,
Kaj Niemi <a href="mailto:kajtzu@basen.net" target="_blank"><kajtzu@basen.net></a> wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div>Considering the 2023 budget [1, page 6] is a round 40M
EUR, you are willing to add 9.6M EUR extra just like that?</div>
<br>
<br>
<div>Kaj</div>
<br>
<br>
<div>[1] <a href="https://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-786.pdf" target="_blank">https://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-786.pdf</a></div>
<br>
<br>
<div>-----Original Message-----</div>
<div>From: members-discuss
<a href="mailto:members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net" target="_blank"><members-discuss-bounces@ripe.net></a> On Behalf Of ivaylo</div>
<div>Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 14:21</div>
<div>To: <a href="mailto:members-discuss@ripe.net" target="_blank">members-discuss@ripe.net</a></div>
<div>Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [ncc-announce] [GM]
Consultation on RIPE NCC Charging Scheme 2024</div>
<br>
<div>Hello,</div>
<br>
<div>Nor scheme 1 nor scheme 2 are good and fair. Scheme 2 is
litle step in the</div>
<div>right direction but still far from from what must be.</div>
<br>
<div>By IANA public documents delegated resources to RIPE are:</div>
<br>
<div>688128 IPV4 /22 blocks</div>
<div>2131972 IPV6 /32 blocks</div>
<div>42882 ASN</div>
<br>
<div>By official data RIPE LIRs are 22500</div>
<br>
<div>If constant yearly fee for each LIR is 300 euro, and
charge 15 EURO for</div>
<div>each block and ASN the LIRs holds (on /22 IPV4, /32 IPV6,
and 1 ASN)</div>
<br>
<div>RIPE will collect:</div>
<br>
<div>22500 * 300 = 6 750 000 EURO</div>
<div>(688128+2131972+42882)*15 = 42 944 730 EURO</div>
<br>
<div>SUM: 49 694 730 EURO (nearly 50 milions)</div>
<br>
<div>Which seems more than enough RIPE to function normally !</div>
<br>
<div>On yearly basis RIPE can revisit member taxes depending
if are collected</div>
<div>more or less money and to ask for increase of constant
LIR taxes (300 euro)</div>
<div>or to return back money to LIRs (as RIPE done it up to
2021)</div>
<br>
<div>That will be fair charging scheme for me. As more
resources you hold, as</div>
<div>bigger your organisation is, as more you have to pay.</div>
<br>
<br>
<div>Ivaylo Josifov</div>
<div>VarnaIX / Varteh LTD</div>
<div>Varna, Bulgaria</div>
<br>
<br>
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