<html theme="bilue"><head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head><body text="#485663">The position of the DBTF is it's asking the
routing working group for its opinion on the future of RPSL in the RIPE
database.<br>
<br>
It is clear that there are data quality issues in some areas, but also
that there is a good deal of data in the IRRDB which is operationally
valuable.<br>
<br>
It would also be great to hear from other RIR IRRs about their position
on this, but this is possibly a separate issue. Similarly for any
engagement with the IETF.<br>
<br>
Nick<br>
<span>
</span><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:835710671.607916.1589466590931@mail.yahoo.com" style="border:
0px none ! important;">
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<a style="color:#485664
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:500;text-decoration:none
!important;" href="mailto:routing-wg@ripe.net" moz-do-not-send="true">ripedenis---
via routing-wg</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#909AA4"><span style="padding-left:6px">14
May 2020 at 15:29</span></font></div> </div></div>
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<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">This is exactly the point I
am making George. I am not saying the RIPE Database is special. Exactly
the opposite. So if there is a problem with using RPSL in the RIPE
Database I assume it is likely all IRRs have the same problem. So should
the IETF look at this issue or is it reasonable to change the way
routing data is processed or handled only in the RIPE IRR?</div><div
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr"
data-setdir="false">cheers</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">denis</div><div
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr"
data-setdir="false">co-chair DB-WG</div><div><br></div>
</div><div id="ydp3251f4d0yahoo_quoted_9719956746"
class="ydp3251f4d0yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
<div>
On Thursday, 14 May 2020, 16:16:13 CEST, George
Michaelson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ggm@algebras.org"><ggm@algebras.org></a> wrote:
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><div dir="ltr">The RIPE DB's RPSL is not special in
any regard Denis. Its one BGP<br clear="none">configuration space after
all.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">If the observations about the
RIPE IRR are true, then is it not<br clear="none">equally likely they
hold at other IRR too?<br clear="none"><br clear="none">So I think a
reasonable approach here might be to take observations<br clear="none">about
object types, complexity, usage, and ask other IRR if they also<br
clear="none">see these behaviours?<br clear="none"><br clear="none">-George<br
clear="none"><br clear="none"><div class="ydp3251f4d0yqt9588396618"
id="ydp3251f4d0yqtfd22409"><br clear="none">On Fri, May 15, 2020 at
12:00 AM ripedenis--- via routing-wg<br clear="none"><<a shape="rect"
href="mailto:routing-wg@ripe.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">routing-wg@ripe.net</a>> wrote:<br
clear="none">><br clear="none">> Hi Gert<br clear="none">><br
clear="none">> You are right, this has been an issue for many years.
It is not only the problem of parsing RPSL but also an issue with people
understanding it as a language and applying it correctly. But should
this be an issue taken up by the IETF? Or do you think the RIPE Database
could/should do something different to all other IRRs?<br clear="none">><br
clear="none">> cheers<br clear="none">> denis<br clear="none">><br
clear="none">> co-chair DB-WG<br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br
clear="none">> On Thursday, 14 May 2020, 14:45:11 CEST, Gert Doering
<<a shape="rect" href="mailto:gert@space.net" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gert@space.net</a>> wrote:<br
clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">> Hi,<br
clear="none">><br clear="none">> On Thu, May 14, 2020 at
09:52:06AM +0000, ripedenis--- via routing-wg wrote:<br clear="none">>
> Just a comment on the RPSL issue from the RIPE 80 session today.
RPSL has little to do with the accuracy of data in the RIPE IRR. RPSL is
just a language. Assuming you understand the language, it is your
choice whether or not you maintain your data and keep it accurate and up
to date.<br clear="none">><br clear="none">><br clear="none">>
Right.<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> That said, the data
quality regarding import: and output: lines in the<br clear="none">>
RIPE DB is so poor that "bad and useless" is not halfway sufficient<br
clear="none">> to describe its badness.<br clear="none">><br
clear="none">> I think import/export is beyond repair - it is too
complex to correctly<br clear="none">> parse, and at the same time
not expressive enough to describe policy<br clear="none">> precisely
enough ("export to AS X as peer, no further upstreaming permitted"<br
clear="none">> vs. "export to AS Y as upstream, further distribution
expected").<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> Gert Doering<br
clear="none">> -- NetMaster<br clear="none">> --<br
clear="none">> have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?<br
clear="none">><br clear="none">> SpaceNet AG
Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer<br clear="none">>
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A.
Grundner-Culemann<br clear="none">> D-80807 Muenchen
HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)<br clear="none">> Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444
USt-IdNr.: DE813185279</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" class="__pbConvHr"
style="margin:30px 25px 10px 25px;"><div
style="width:100%;border-top:2px solid
rgba(146,154,163,0.7);padding-top:10px;"> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:49%;">
<a style="color:#485664
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:500;text-decoration:none
!important;" href="mailto:ggm@algebras.org" moz-do-not-send="true">George
Michaelson</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#909AA4"><span style="padding-left:6px">14
May 2020 at 15:15</span></font></div> </div></div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" class="__pbConvBody"
__pbrmquotes="true"
style="color:#909AA4;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"><div>The RIPE
DB's RPSL is not special in any regard Denis. Its one BGP<br>configuration
space after all.<br><br>If the observations about the RIPE IRR are
true, then is it not<br>equally likely they hold at other IRR too?<br><br>So
I think a reasonable approach here might be to take observations<br>about
object types, complexity, usage, and ask other IRR if they also<br>see
these behaviours?<br><br>-George<br><br><br>On Fri, May 15, 2020 at
12:00 AM ripedenis--- via routing-wg</div><div><br><br></div>
</div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" class="__pbConvHr"
style="margin:30px 25px 10px 25px;"><div
style="width:100%;border-top:2px solid
rgba(146,154,163,0.7);padding-top:10px;"> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:49%;">
<a style="color:#485664
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:500;text-decoration:none
!important;" href="mailto:routing-wg@ripe.net" moz-do-not-send="true">ripedenis---
via routing-wg</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#909AA4"><span style="padding-left:6px">14
May 2020 at 15:00</span></font></div> </div></div>
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__pbrmquotes="true"
style="color:#909AA4;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div
class="ydp21049696yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Hi Gert</div><div dir="ltr"
data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">You are
right, this has been an issue for many years. It is not only the
problem of parsing RPSL but also an issue with people understanding it
as a language and applying it correctly. But should this be an issue
taken up by the IETF? Or do you think the RIPE Database could/should do
something different to all other IRRs?</div><div dir="ltr"
data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">cheers</div><div
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">denis</div><div dir="ltr"
data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">co-chair
DB-WG</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div><br></div>
</div><div id="ydp4c683329yahoo_quoted_0440346518"
class="ydp4c683329yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
<div>
On Thursday, 14 May 2020, 14:45:11 CEST, Gert
Doering <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gert@space.net"><gert@space.net></a> wrote:
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Hi,<br clear="none"><div
class="ydp4c683329yqt5561396357" id="ydp4c683329yqtfd21788"><br
clear="none">On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 09:52:06AM +0000, ripedenis--- via
routing-wg wrote:<br clear="none">> Just a comment on the RPSL issue
from the RIPE 80 session today. RPSL has little to do with the accuracy
of data in the RIPE IRR. RPSL is just a language. Assuming you
understand the language, it is your choice whether or not you maintain
your data and keep it accurate and up to date.</div><br clear="none"><br
clear="none">Right.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">That said, the
data quality regarding import: and output: lines in the<br clear="none">RIPE
DB is so poor that "bad and useless" is not halfway sufficient <br
clear="none">to describe its badness.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I
think import/export is beyond repair - it is too complex to correctly<br
clear="none">parse, and at the same time not expressive enough to
describe policy<br clear="none">precisely enough ("export to AS X as
peer, no further upstreaming permitted"<br clear="none">vs. "export to
AS Y as upstream, further distribution expected").<br clear="none"><br
clear="none">Gert Doering<br clear="none"> -- NetMaster<br
clear="none">-- <br clear="none">have you enabled IPv6 on something
today...?<br clear="none"><br clear="none">SpaceNet AG
Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer<br clear="none">Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen
14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann<br clear="none">D-80807
Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)<br clear="none">Tel:
+49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" class="__pbConvHr"
style="margin:30px 25px 10px 25px;"><div
style="width:100%;border-top:2px solid
rgba(146,154,163,0.7);padding-top:10px;"> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:49%;">
<a style="color:#485664
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:500;text-decoration:none
!important;" href="mailto:gert@space.net" moz-do-not-send="true">Gert
Doering</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#909AA4"><span style="padding-left:6px">14
May 2020 at 13:45</span></font></div> </div></div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" class="__pbConvBody"
__pbrmquotes="true"
style="color:#909AA4;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"><div>Hi,<br></div><div><br>Right.<br><br>That
said, the data quality regarding import: and output: lines in the<br>RIPE
DB is so poor that "bad and useless" is not halfway sufficient <br>to
describe its badness.<br><br>I think import/export is beyond repair - it
is too complex to correctly<br>parse, and at the same time not
expressive enough to describe policy<br>precisely enough ("export to AS X
as peer, no further upstreaming permitted"<br>vs. "export to AS Y as
upstream, further distribution expected").<br><br>Gert Doering<br>
-- NetMaster<br></div>
</div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" class="__pbConvHr"
style="margin:30px 25px 10px 25px;"><div
style="width:100%;border-top:2px solid
rgba(146,154,163,0.7);padding-top:10px;"> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:49%;">
<a style="color:#485664
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:500;text-decoration:none
!important;" href="mailto:routing-wg@ripe.net" moz-do-not-send="true">ripedenis---
via routing-wg</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#909AA4"><span style="padding-left:6px">14
May 2020 at 10:52</span></font></div> </div></div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" class="__pbConvBody"
__pbrmquotes="true"
style="color:#909AA4;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div
class="yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,
Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Colleagues</div><div
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr"
data-setdir="false">Just a comment on the RPSL issue from the RIPE 80
session today. RPSL has little to do with the accuracy of data in the
RIPE IRR. RPSL is just a language. Assuming you understand the language,
it is your choice whether or not you maintain your data and keep it
accurate and up to date.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">If we were to change from RPSL to
something else the data would not necessarily be of any better quality.
But it would be 'non standard' compared to all the other IRRs. Changing
RPSL, as a means of inputting and outputting routing data, is not
something that can be considered unilaterally within the RIPE Database.</div><div
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr"
data-setdir="false">Perhaps a different question to ask could be, "is
all the routing information contained in the RIPE Database still
meaningful, useful and necessary (regardless of the language)?".</div><div
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr"
data-setdir="false">cheers</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">denis</div><div
dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr"
data-setdir="false">co-chair DB-WG</div></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
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